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Open Carry, Cobb Village 12 Cinemas, and Leesburg PD.

Walt_Kowalski

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
354
Location
Ashburn, Virginia, USA
All,

Over the weekend a buddy of mine (not on the boards... yet) and I decided to see another movie at Cobb Village 12 Cinemas, in Leesburg VA. He and I have OC'ed there to see several movies in the last few weeks, and no one working there has remarked on my OC. On each occasion I've noticed that there is a Leesburg PD officer there, possibly moonlighting. On this occasion my buddy and I passed him strong sides on our way to get coffee. He immediately noticed our OC, and I acknowledged him with a friendly nod. As we waited in the concessions line to order some coffee, I observed the officer pointing us out to, what I would assume to be, a member of management. After a few moments of the manager and the officer looking our way and speaking to each other (kind of uncomfortable), my buddy and I paid for and took our coffee to a table and sat down. We were now around the corner from the officer and he no longer had direct line of sight with us.

** I have no recording. this is all to my best recollection **

After about a minute, the officer approaches us and asks us what we are carrying. I'm thinking.. OK.. cool. this officer is just being friendly... and after a few minutes of just talking about firearms and handguns in general he the asks us for ID. This is where is went down hill for me. :( I initially refused, and I pointed out to him that in VA, "I only need to provide my name and city of residence". He then replied "I need to know that you are not a felon." to which I replied "Do you think a felon is going to Openly carry a firearm?" he stated / insisted that he must see our ID's, and that he was just trying to do his job. *not blaming my buddy here, but he is new to OC, and produced his ID* Once my buddy produced his ID, I then gave him mine, while saying "I know I don't have to do this, and something to the matter of 'I thought Leesburg PD was trained on OC'. " after he called in our info, and everything came back OK (DUH!!!!) We spoke for a few more minutes about laws in other states ( The officer was originally from NY and that explains A LOT). The Officer even jokingly said that one of the reasons this theater was great was that you can drink there, but that we could not since we were carrying. I corrected him by informing him that if you are OC, that you can drink, it's only CC, that you can not. At this time I realized that we only had a few minutes to get to our seats, and handed the officer one of Ed's OC cards.

All in all not a horrible experience. I'll def. look into getting a voice recorder. I did learn one good thing. If the management of the Cobb theater had and issue or policy against carrying of firearms, we would have been asked to leave. If you live in Ashburn, Leesburg, or Sterling area of VA this is the ONLY theater that I know of that does not have a policy against OC or CC. Lets give them plenty of business!
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
You should have stood your ground. OC is not RAS to determine nor INVESTIGATE legal status.

Yep, just say no!

Then ask for his honorary or temporary Southern Pass. Bet he's here illegally! Wait....you said Leesburg, He's legal,:p

All joking aside, giving in just makes it harder for everyone,
 
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skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
Sorry I'm late.

If he thinks you are a felon in possession, let him detain you and go through the steps to find out if he was right or not. That's what he gets paid for.

I wonder how many folks piloting automobiles he stops because he thinks they are driving without a drivers license carried on their person, let alone if thay have had one issued to them and it presently unexpired. Or how many folks seen using a cell phone are the lawful owner of that device.

Do I really need to extend the list?:banghead:

When you let this happen you make it easier for him to do it to the next person. And pretty soon he will start demanding to see proof of ownership of your cell phone under the reasoning that "it could be stolen". And he could be a jack-booted thug.

It's difficult to stand up against intimidation, and it usually involves more than a little inconvenience to the plans you had already made. You may not want to be "the hero". But then, Rosa Parks was just dead tired and did not want to get up and carry her tired bones to the back of the bus - she did not want or intend to start a bus boycott to end Jim Crow laws. It just sort of turned out that way.

Or you could be like someone else, who knew they were dealing with someone trying to intimidate them and decided that they were willing to deal with the "minor inconvenience" opposing that would entail. Unfortunately the folks trying to intimidate decided that they would go to a full-court press rather than see they were not on solid ground. Don't know yet if they will end up being a "hero" or the victim of their own audacity for standing up against tyranny.

stay safe.
 

Sesrun

Regular Member
Joined
May 4, 2011
Messages
84
Location
Roanoke, VA
I'm getting confused.
In VA are you required to give your address as well as your name, if your on foot?

Refer to this post. It also has a thread link directly discussing Stop & ID.

So far of the 80 counties/cities I have looked at 10 have Stop & ID Ordinances which are listed below and generally require both your name and address.

Alexandria City Sec 1-1-11(c-5) - name, residence address and telephone number
Arlington County Sec 17-13 (c) - name, and address
Chesapeake City Sec 46-209 - name
Haymarket Town Sec 30-11 - name, and address
Manassas City Sec 78-311 (c) - name, and address
Norfolk City Sec 29-73.1 - "full legal name"
Roanoke City Sec 23-2 - name, and address
Salem City Sec 58-23 (c) - name, and address
Stafford County Sec 17-7 (c) - name, and address
Virginia Beach City Sec 23-7.1 - name, and address
 
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TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
Thank you Sesrun.
Need a card like the VCDL with this info and lawyers names and phone numbers.
Larry
Problem is, there are over 130 unique jurisdictions in the state.

Although it probably won't help you "on the side of the road", or perhaps "sidewalk" as the case may be, I believe all these ordinances will have provisions that tie the authority to some aspect of public safety. This is not defined, so you will never win on the scene*, but it's worth keeping in mind.

* One of those little tricks the courts use to maintain their ultimate authority over the law and the citizens who write it.

TFred
 

GasCharged

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2011
Messages
23
Location
Toano, VA
TFred,
I was afraid of that.
Too darn many laws....it was supposed to be a bit simplier back when....
Thank You,
Larry
 

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
Sometimes I almost wonder if it wouldn't be better to establish a sort-of preemption type state-wide law... but only of it has extremely clear guidelines that are strongly enforced with regard to RAS, and specifically disallows "fishing".

That would never happen.

TFred
 

Walt_Kowalski

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
354
Location
Ashburn, Virginia, USA
Refer to this post. It also has a thread link directly discussing Stop & ID.

So far of the 80 counties/cities I have looked at 10 have Stop & ID Ordinances which are listed below and generally require both your name and address.

Alexandria City Sec 1-1-11(c-5) - name, residence address and telephone number
Arlington County Sec 17-13 (c) - name, and address
Chesapeake City Sec 46-209 - name
Haymarket Town Sec 30-11 - name, and address
Manassas City Sec 78-311 (c) - name, and address
Norfolk City Sec 29-73.1 - "full legal name"
Roanoke City Sec 23-2 - name, and address
Salem City Sec 58-23 (c) - name, and address
Stafford County Sec 17-7 (c) - name, and address
Virginia Beach City Sec 23-7.1 - name, and address

Great post and info.

I agree with EVERYONE here in that this was not a good encounter. Next time I will have a better way to record the convo (besides my iphone) and will 'stick to my guns' about Stop and ID.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
Walt,

Even Sun Tzu cautioned about picking the time and the place of one's battles. Some other guy said something about knowing when to hold 'em, when to fold 'em, and when to walk away.

Not everything is a life-or-death matter. Some stuff is more important than that. :lol:

But we've saved you a spot here on the barricades. "No pasarán!"

stay safe.
 

nuc65

Activist Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
1,121
Location
Lynchburg, Virginia, USA
Refer to this post. It also has a thread link directly discussing Stop & ID.

So far of the 80 counties/cities I have looked at 10 have Stop & ID Ordinances which are listed below and generally require both your name and address.

Alexandria City Sec 1-1-11(c-5) - name, residence address and telephone number
Arlington County Sec 17-13 (c) - name, and address
Chesapeake City Sec 46-209 - name
Haymarket Town Sec 30-11 - name, and address
Manassas City Sec 78-311 (c) - name, and address
Norfolk City Sec 29-73.1 - "full legal name"
Roanoke City Sec 23-2 - name, and address
Salem City Sec 58-23 (c) - name, and address
Stafford County Sec 17-7 (c) - name, and address
Virginia Beach City Sec 23-7.1 - name, and address

Every one of these requires that Public Safety be jeopardized, OC does NOT jeopardize public safety!
 

TFred

Regular Member
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Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
Every one of these requires that Public Safety be jeopardized, OC does NOT jeopardize public safety!
As I alluded to in my post, unfortunately, the public safety attribute of OC is not the issue. The issue is that the law gives a subjective interpretation power to the LEO on the scene, and you are not privy to what they might know.

If a robbery took place around the corner just 5 minutes earlier, by a suspect who matches your description, the LEO is going to stop you and demand to know your ID, and in fact you might even be arrested, at least until they figure out it wasn't you.

There does not seem to be any way around this, given the current state of law.

TFred
 

cyras21

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2007
Messages
152
Location
Stepehens City, VA
Refer to this post. It also has a thread link directly discussing Stop & ID.

So far of the 80 counties/cities I have looked at 10 have Stop & ID Ordinances which are listed below and generally require both your name and address.

Alexandria City Sec 1-1-11(c-5) - name, residence address and telephone number
Arlington County Sec 17-13 (c) - name, and address
Chesapeake City Sec 46-209 - name
Haymarket Town Sec 30-11 - name, and address
Manassas City Sec 78-311 (c) - name, and address
Norfolk City Sec 29-73.1 - "full legal name"
Roanoke City Sec 23-2 - name, and address
Salem City Sec 58-23 (c) - name, and address
Stafford County Sec 17-7 (c) - name, and address
Virginia Beach City Sec 23-7.1 - name, and address


Maybe we should work on a state preemption for stop and ID. there are somethings that should remain uniformed throughout the common wealth.
 

wylde007

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
3,035
Location
Va Beach, Occupied VA
If a robbery took place around the corner just 5 minutes earlier, by a suspect who matches your description, the LEO is going to stop you and demand to know your ID, and in fact you might even be arrested, at least until they figure out it wasn't you.
And you would still have the right not to answer... as long as you are willing to accept the potential consequence of being forcibly disarmed, arrested, hauled to the magistrate and positively ID'ed there.

Not many people are willing to be so inconvenienced. Most cops know this... and use it to their advantage.

On the other hand, most of the times I have been "stopped" because someone put in a MWAG call the responding officer has been respectful. The only one who asked my name I gave her my first and she was satisfied.

Only once have I been Terry-stopped for matching the description (a VERY VAGUE description) of a suspect in a fight which presumably took place HOURS earlier in a club in which I had been running sound. Yes, I was armed. Even though I was not obligated, I provided my ID because it was 2 AM and I really would have preferred to go home instead of to the precinct.
 

NightmareSHANIQUA

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Sep 5, 2009
Messages
227
Location
Haymarket/Gainesville/Arlington/GMU , Virginia, US
And you would still have the right not to answer... as long as you are willing to accept the potential consequence of being forcibly disarmed, arrested, hauled to the magistrate and positively ID'ed there.

Not many people are willing to be so inconvenienced. Most cops know this... and use it to their advantage.

On the other hand, most of the times I have been "stopped" because someone put in a MWAG call the responding officer has been respectful. The only one who asked my name I gave her my first and she was satisfied.

Only once have I been Terry-stopped for matching the description (a VERY VAGUE description) of a suspect in a fight which presumably took place HOURS earlier in a club in which I had been running sound. Yes, I was armed. Even though I was not obligated, I provided my ID because it was 2 AM and I really would have preferred to go home instead of to the precinct.

If youre a suspect that matches an armed robbery BOLO then you should expect to be gun faced, disarmed, and detained for investigation. Once its all cleared up and youre determined not to be the suspect, youre free to go. But if you are gun faced, and possibly told why, I would pray everyone here would have the good sense to comply with commands. Quite frankly, I wouldnt put it past an idiot bad guy to try to blend in among a crowd of excited onlookers if his true identity was not revealed (ie face covered, dropped his jacket or other article of clothing). But the odds of that happening are very slim. Youre going to get an apology from the PD, but its for their safety. It may not be perfect, but no one is going home with any extra holes than when they left for the day. We hope.
 

onegig

New member
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Oct 22, 2011
Messages
2
Location
MD
Just so you are aware. Loudoun County, which the Town of Leesburg is in, has an ordinance requiring identification. It is very similar to the others posted in this thread and those posted in the other thread. It is under the Loitering provision. So while you were in the "Town" corporate limits, you are also in the County, and those ordinances still apply.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
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Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Just so you are aware. Loudoun County, which the Town of Leesburg is in, has an ordinance requiring identification. It is very similar to the others posted in this thread and those posted in the other thread. It is under the Loitering provision. So while you were in the "Town" corporate limits, you are also in the County, and those ordinances still apply.

Welcome to the forum Onegig.

No problem with identifying myself verbally.......a one time offer made only after dark; however, a demand for hard copy made under color of law w/o RAS or PC is baseless.

If met with firm insistence, my next words are, "I respectfully decline. Am I free to go?"
 

SouthernBoy

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Joined
May 12, 2007
Messages
5,837
Location
Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
Just so you are aware. Loudoun County, which the Town of Leesburg is in, has an ordinance requiring identification. It is very similar to the others posted in this thread and those posted in the other thread. It is under the Loitering provision. So while you were in the "Town" corporate limits, you are also in the County, and those ordinances still apply.

How would this work if you are out one evening or early one morning walking the dog while OC'ing and have not taken along your wallet (rather common practice I would bet)? There goes the tangible ID.
 
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