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Thread: Livonia PD just pulled me over for OC'ing on motorcycle???

  1. #1
    Regular Member T Mack's Avatar
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    Question Livonia PD just pulled me over for OC'ing on motorcycle???

    Was on my motorcycle OC'ing and a Livonia marked police car got behind me followed me for a mile or soand a few turns then lit me up. I pulled over and he got out and asked me for my ID I said I was
    carrying and was a bit hesitant to reach for my ID cause it was on the same side as my gun. He told me that was the reason he pulled me over (gun showing) and he already knew that I had a CPL. Then he
    proceeds to tell me that I was open carrying and that my gun was in a holster and that partially conceals my gun so I was in violation of open carrying laws??? I played dumb like my shirt must a blew up
    showing my gun I didn't want to argue with him but I was baffled I didn't know what to say anyway??!! He was a patrol supervisor it said on his car. He was not very disrespectful took my and got back in his
    car for about 2 minutes he got out gave me my I'd and asked if I had anywhere to put my gun on my
    bike and I just pulled my shirt over my gun and said I would be good like this. Told him thanks for not
    jamming me up on anything and we were both on r way.

    He did say something about groups OC'ing and said I should be aware of the OC'ing and CC'Ing laws.
    Did I do something wrong?

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    You have a CPL and you were OCing on your vehicle. That is legal in MI, correct? Is there some law about holstered weapons being considered concealed? I see no reason why he should have pulled you over and asked for anything. Bad stop.
    Last edited by thebigsd; 08-15-2011 at 04:35 PM.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  3. #3
    Regular Member T Mack's Avatar
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    Question He said gun was holster...

    He knew before he pulled me over I had a CPL so he said the reason for the stop was OC'ing illegally
    because gun was in a holster partially concealing the gun? He even pointed to his gun and his holster and said that he would also be in violation of OC'ing laws? So how r u supposed to OC hold it in your hand?! By a string?
    Last edited by T Mack; 08-15-2011 at 04:40 PM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    You need a CPL (debatable, but we welcome a test case if you can afford 5 years behind bars and the defense fees) to OC on a motorcycle in MI. Assuming you have a CPL you violated no laws. Might want to FOIA the dispatch audio -- your call.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    He even pointed to his gun and his holster and said that he would also be in violation of OC'ing laws?
    Good lord Jesus please help this country.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

  6. #6
    Regular Member TheSzerdi's Avatar
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    This LEO was obviously confused on some point. Perhaps due to the way transport law is worded in that it doesn't provide for OC or CC, but just specifies "in a vehicle." You were perfectly legal. Did you get an audio recording?

  7. #7
    Regular Member T Mack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSzerdi View Post
    This LEO was obviously confused on some point. Perhaps due to the way transport law is worded in that it doesn't provide for OC or CC, but just specifies "in a vehicle." You were perfectly legal. Did you get an audio recording?
    No audio recording but I have learned my lesson next time I OC I will have a recorder going.

  8. #8
    Regular Member T Mack's Avatar
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    Question Also weird...

    He never asked me for my insurance or registration for my motorcycle???

    He NEVER even asked for my CPL? Weird!

    Just my drivers license?
    Last edited by T Mack; 08-15-2011 at 04:52 PM.

  9. #9
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Well The MOC board has been giving a bit of hell to the LPD and some city council members, so I suspect it's payback. He was just harassing you. A gun in a visible holster is not concealed. I hope to god he knows that and was, like I suspect, F'ing with you.

    I guess I would contact the Chief and ask him if he is telling his officers that a gun in a visible holster is concealed (I doubt it.). See what he says, then tell him your story and ask him to inform his officers otherwise.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  10. #10
    Regular Member T Mack's Avatar
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Well The MOC board has been giving a bit of hell to the LPD and some city council members, so I suspect it's payback. He was just harassing you. A gun in a visible holster is not concealed. I hope to god he knows that and was, like I suspect, F'ing with you.

    I guess I would contact the Chief and ask him if he is telling his officers that a gun in a visible holster is concealed (I doubt it.). See what he says, then tell him your story and ask him to inform his officers otherwise.
    Should I call the chief or should I go to the station?

  11. #11
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    There are so many things wrong with the stop that I dont know where to begin.

    You did NOTHING wrong. The officer doesnt know a thing about gun laws apparently. My guess is that he was briefed briefly about OC. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. Your case is my point.

    You can OC on a motorcycle, you need a CPL, you don't have to conceal, and there are no "OC laws" so to speak.

    I agree, the audio would have been nice.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Mack View Post
    Should I call the chief or should I go to the station?
    Show up, works way better that speaking to the desk sergeant on the phone. Make an appointment, and take it from there. OC, and bring a recorder. If you ask around, someone from here or MOC can accompany you.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 08-15-2011 at 05:39 PM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member T Mack's Avatar
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    Question Wanna go?

    Anyone wanna go with me?

  14. #14
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    Chief Stevenson,

    I would like to relay to you an incident that happened in your city today. It appears your officers may need some additional training on open carry and concealed carry laws. This was taken from one of our forums. Please forgive any spelling or grammar errors.

    "Was on my motorcycle OC'ing and a Livonia marked police car got behind me followed me for a mile or so and a few turns then lit me up. I pulled over and he got out and asked me for my ID I said I was carrying and was a bit hesitant to reach for my ID cause it was on the same side as my gun. He told me that was the reason he pulled me over (gun showing) and he already knew that I had a CPL. Then he proceeds to tell me that I was open carrying and that my gun was in a holster and that partially conceals my gun so I was in violation of open carrying laws??? I played dumb like my shirt must a blew up
    showing my gun I didn't want to argue with him but I was baffled I didn't know what to say anyway??!! He was a patrol supervisor it said on his car. He was not very disrespectful took my and got back in his car for about 2 minutes he got out gave me my I'd and asked if I had anywhere to put my gun on my bike and I just pulled my shirt over my gun and said I would be good like this. Told him thanks for not jamming me up on anything and we were both on r way.

    He did say something about groups OC'ing and said I should be aware of the OC'ing and CC'Ing laws.
    Did I do something wrong?

    He knew before he pulled me over I had a CPL so he said the reason for the stop was OC'ing illegally because gun was in a holster partially concealing the gun? He even pointed to his gun and his holster and said that he would also be in violation of OC'ing laws? So how r u supposed to OC hold it in your hand?! By a string?"

    As I am sure you are aware, a person who possesses a CPL may open carry or conceal carry in all places not listed in MCL 28.425o. A person who possesses a valid CPL may also open or conceal carry while on a motorcycle. Absent any other valid reason for pulling this gentleman over, this was an illegal stop. The gentleman in question may be contacting you in regards to this incident.

    If your officers have not reviewed MSP Legal Update 86, it is a good refresher on open carry and how MCL 28.425o and 750.234d work together. If my organization can be of any assistance to the LPD with regard to open carry and applicable laws, please feel free to contact me. We would be happy to help you craft a current training manual on open carry.

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...2_336854_7.pdf

    I have appreciated your professionalism during our correspondence in the past. I am sure you will look in this situation with the same level of professionalism I have come to know. Any update you can provide me after your investigation will be very much appreciated.

    Thank you.

    --
    Rob Harris
    Vice President
    Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T Mack View Post
    Anyone wanna go with me?
    email board@miopencarry.org and we can try to schedule something with the Chief if you like. I have emailed him(see above).

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    In a situation like that, I think it is best to ask for a citation that you can take to court. I've done that before and the officer was completely dumbfounded because I squarely called him on his bluff. My incident was a MWAG call because I was open carrying eating dinner in a restaurant at dinnertime. He was going to keep arguing with me until I told him to just a citation for the law he thought I was violating. That ended the argument.
    A member of MOC was in the exact situation you describe. He was given a citation for "miscellaneous CPL violation". Try to find that MCL or Code in Warren's ordinances. When his lawyer showed up in court, the officer couldn't utter a word when the prosecutor asked him to explain the ticket. Ticket dismissed. Still cost our guy a couple hundred bucks for the lawyer. I have no doubt it would have been tossed even if he didn't hire an attorney, but would you risk it?

  17. #17
    Regular Member T Mack's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    email board@miopencarry.org and we can try to schedule something with the Chief if you like. I have emailed him(see above).
    E mail sent

  18. #18
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    wow. we are back to "a gun in a holster is concealed". how are these cops so uninformed after all this time.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElectricianLU58 View Post
    wow. we are back to "a gun in a holster is concealed". how are these cops so uninformed after all this time.
    Even if I used clear packing tape to strap it to my right hip, it's still concealed to those on my left. Idiotic.

  20. #20
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    Livonia PD

    Go to the station and tell them you want to file a "formal complaint". Internal affairs has to investigate and send you a report of their findings. A formal complaint stays in the officers file for five years and it doesn't matter what the out come of the investigation is.

    good luck

  21. #21
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    T Mack
    I OC on my motorcycle ALL the time and have never been stopped for oc of a firearm, have even oced in indiana ohio ky & tn, on multiple times, never any problem worst i get from the pd's all over is a nod. this has been over a 4 yr period.

    You did NOTHING wrong period, the pd is f--n with you or he is ignorant of the law, or is under orders from up above to do the stops on oc ....

    T mack we can always do another New Era ride and see how the police handle half a dozen or more OCing motorcylists. that is another option.
    Last edited by mastiff69; 08-15-2011 at 07:49 PM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member T Mack's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by ElectricianLU58 View Post
    wow. we are back to "a gun in a holster is concealed". how are these cops so uninformed after all this time.
    I was baffled when he said that! I was thinking to myself how am I supposed to OC if it's not ok in a
    holster!! I was racking my brain, did I miss something on the OC web site? I was like oh ****!!

  23. #23
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Technically, I think he was legal in the stop BUT, as soon as he knew YOU had a cpl, the stop should have ended. Assuming that one needs a cpl while on a motor vehicle, a cop could assume you are breaking the law. But, as soon as he determined you had a cpl, the initial reason for the stop has ceased to exist.
    That being said, the whole comment about a pistol in a holster being partially concealed is garbage... and is exactly what I was told by GRPD on New Year's eve. The cop eventually acknowledged such a statement was BS. I'd take this to mean that the officer was testing you.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  24. #24
    Regular Member T Mack's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by maybeifulucky View Post
    Go to the station and tell them you want to file a "formal complaint". Internal affairs has to investigate and send you a report of their findings. A formal complaint stays in the officers file for five years and it doesn't matter what the out come of the investigation is.

    good luck

    As polite as he was, I don't think I want to file a complaint.... YET!

  25. #25
    Regular Member T Mack's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by mastiff69 View Post
    T Mack
    I OC on my motorcycle ALL the time and have never been stopped for oc of a firearm, have even oced in indiana ohio ky & tn, on multiple times, never any problem worst i get from the pd's all over is a nod. this has been over a 4 yr period.

    You did NOTHING wrong period, the pd is f--n with you or he is ignorant of the law, or is under orders from up above to do the stops on oc ....

    T mack we can always do another New Era ride and see how the police handle half a dozen or more OCing motorcylists. that is another option.
    I love to ride and OC I'm ready whenever you guys are!

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