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Livonia PD just pulled me over for OC'ing on motorcycle???
- Thread starter T Mack
- Start date
Haman J.T.
New member
It took me a long time to figure out what IMO meant. I just don't understand how it is that the first time I decide to use it someone else wouldn't know what it meant! I thought I was just one of the old farts who didn't get this newfangled stuff! LOL! There! I used another one! Welcome! CARRY ON!
jmlefler
Regular Member
I don't think it was a good stop, if the PO pulled you over just because he saw a weapon...
"Officers are reminded that the Fourth Amendment protects citizens from unreasonable searches and seizures. Carrying a non-concealed firearm is generally legal. Officers may engage in a consensual encounter with a person carrying a non-concealed pistol; however, in order to stop a citizen, officers are required to have reasonable suspicion that crime is afoot. For example, officers may not stop a person on the mere possibility the person may be carrying an unregistered pistol. Officers must possess facts rising to the level of reasonable suspicion to believe the person is carrying an unregistered pistol."
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf
Carry on.
"Officers are reminded that the Fourth Amendment protects citizens from unreasonable searches and seizures. Carrying a non-concealed firearm is generally legal. Officers may engage in a consensual encounter with a person carrying a non-concealed pistol; however, in order to stop a citizen, officers are required to have reasonable suspicion that crime is afoot. For example, officers may not stop a person on the mere possibility the person may be carrying an unregistered pistol. Officers must possess facts rising to the level of reasonable suspicion to believe the person is carrying an unregistered pistol."
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf
Carry on.
NHCGRPR45
Regular Member
No your not a whimp, my first LEO encounter was a bit worse than that, but yea I was a little scared. There were 2 of them and they were VERY into the whole command pressence thing, very loud and very threating. They demanded everything and ordered me to conceal my gun. I complied and got a sound tounge lashing for "taking them away" from real police work. You did very well.
The larger danger comes from an officer just arriving or a partner officer who didn't hear the lead officer ask you for your ID. The just arriving officer sees who he believes to be a BG or at the very least a "suspect" reaching for a gun. He does what he was trained to and attempts to help/save his fellow officer. The Other situation is similar and with with similar results. Again you did very well, and if he had asked to take temporary custody of the weapon then I would personally never draw the gun myself, I would have the officer disarm me. That helps to reduce the possibillity of the 2 above situations.
cmdr_iceman71
Regular Member
I'm just pleased that you learned your lesson about going around without a voice recorder. Because this stop could have gone worse. Take my advice and invest in a device that is designed from the ground up to record conversations and sound (i.e. digital voice recorder) When I listen to the playback on my mp3 players vs. my dedicated voice recorder there is simply no comparison.
"Legally speaking officer, it is impossible in the state of Michigan to have a loaded handgun on your person's while inside or sitting upon a motor vehicle and have that method of carry considered "open carry." Regardless how visible the firearm, by legal defintion it is concealed."
Nonetheless you did well because you kept your head on and rode away with your freedom, firearm, and no fines or citation. It gets easier.
"Legally speaking officer, it is impossible in the state of Michigan to have a loaded handgun on your person's while inside or sitting upon a motor vehicle and have that method of carry considered "open carry." Regardless how visible the firearm, by legal defintion it is concealed."
Nonetheless you did well because you kept your head on and rode away with your freedom, firearm, and no fines or citation. It gets easier.
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smellslikemichigan
Campaign Veteran
did you CC (carbon copy, not concealed carry) the council on this one? :monkey:dude::banana:
scot623
Regular Member
On Aug 16, 2011, at 7:43 AM, "Stevenson, Robert" <rstevenson@lpdmail.com> wrote:
Mr. Harris, *
Would it be possible to find out what time this occurred. I would like to have the video pulled for review. Narrowing down the time greatly speeds up locating the video. I will inform you of the outcome.
Thank you for the MSP link. I will forward it to The Patrol Shift Lieutenants.*
Very Truly Yours,
Robert Stevenson
Chief Stevenson, Once again, thank you for *your quick response. The stop occurred on Hines drive and Newburgh Rd at 4:30 pm yesterday. *
Not to create any confusion by discussing two incidents in one email, but I did contact the gentleman stopped at the Highland Games. He confirmed the first person heard talking to him on the audio link I sent you was in fact a Livonia Police officer. The officer was the first person to initiate contact. *After the pause, you then hear the official from the Highland Games speaking to him.
Thanks again for your help in these matters. *
Rob Harris
Vice President
Michigan Open Carry
www.miopencarry.org
586-913-1661
Mr. Harris, *
Would it be possible to find out what time this occurred. I would like to have the video pulled for review. Narrowing down the time greatly speeds up locating the video. I will inform you of the outcome.
Thank you for the MSP link. I will forward it to The Patrol Shift Lieutenants.*
Very Truly Yours,
Robert Stevenson
Chief Stevenson, Once again, thank you for *your quick response. The stop occurred on Hines drive and Newburgh Rd at 4:30 pm yesterday. *
Not to create any confusion by discussing two incidents in one email, but I did contact the gentleman stopped at the Highland Games. He confirmed the first person heard talking to him on the audio link I sent you was in fact a Livonia Police officer. The officer was the first person to initiate contact. *After the pause, you then hear the official from the Highland Games speaking to him.
Thanks again for your help in these matters. *
Rob Harris
Vice President
Michigan Open Carry
www.miopencarry.org
586-913-1661
smellslikemichigan
Campaign Veteran
nice, this chief seems like an OK guy
Tucker6900
Regular Member
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe I read somewhere, a law or rule, that stated a reasonable person can clearly identify that its a pistol, its not concealed.
smellslikemichigan
Campaign Veteran
no, that's not a law, but it is just good common sense. i think some have surmised that in court it would go like this:
defense attorney: "officer shmuckatelly, how did you know that my client had a firearm?"
officer shmuckatelly: "because i could see it, it was clearly on his hip in a holster."
defense attorney: "your honor, i move to dismiss on the grounds that my client's firearm was not concealed and that officer shmuckatelly is clearly insane for trying to charge my client with a concealed weapon violation"
defense attorney: "officer shmuckatelly, how did you know that my client had a firearm?"
officer shmuckatelly: "because i could see it, it was clearly on his hip in a holster."
defense attorney: "your honor, i move to dismiss on the grounds that my client's firearm was not concealed and that officer shmuckatelly is clearly insane for trying to charge my client with a concealed weapon violation"
Oh man.... I don't know why that caught me just right... but I had to SERIOUSLY styfle some laughter after reading that to avoid getting busted surfing the I-net at work... lmfao!!!!
T Mack
Regular Member
This is getting interesting
smellslikemichigan
Campaign Veteran
yeah, it's a marine corps thing, whenever a drill instructor would tell a cautionary tale about how not to do something, the star of the show would always be PFC Shmuckatelly. he was usually a bumbling idiot, which is why the name fit so well for my story.
jeremy05
Regular Member
Sounds like a Decent Stop IMO
The officer saw the OC handgun on a Motorcycle and wanted to make sure he had a CPL.
Maybe the Officer wanted to inform the individual that his Firearm was In the Open AND If he Didnt have a CPL that he should try to keep it covered up better.
Upon finding that the individual riding the motorcycle has a CPL he should have been cut free. Five minute stop and your on your way.
I personally would not have made the stop, as its a waste of time anyways, CPL holders show up on the license plate when you run them anyways, so how much further would you really need to investigate him. Not like the plate comes back stolen! If so have at it! FELONY STOP! Fun fun!
The officer saw the OC handgun on a Motorcycle and wanted to make sure he had a CPL.
Maybe the Officer wanted to inform the individual that his Firearm was In the Open AND If he Didnt have a CPL that he should try to keep it covered up better.
Upon finding that the individual riding the motorcycle has a CPL he should have been cut free. Five minute stop and your on your way.
I personally would not have made the stop, as its a waste of time anyways, CPL holders show up on the license plate when you run them anyways, so how much further would you really need to investigate him. Not like the plate comes back stolen! If so have at it! FELONY STOP! Fun fun!
Venator
Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
COUNTER-POINT
Prosecutor: Your honor Officer shmuckatelly is a highly trained observer and is trained to detect concealed weapons. So the officer is not a reasonable person in regards to the reasonableness standard and this case should move forward.
The above is from a real case and guess what? the case (Although an IWB holster) moved forward.
smellslikemichigan
Campaign Veteran
stopping someone for OC on a motorcycle to check for a CPL makes no more sense than stopping someone on a motorcycle to make sure their DL has a motorcycle endorsement... or stopping all trucks to make sure the driver has a CDL
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Venator
Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
The officer admitted that he already knew he had a CPL and stopped him anyway....pure harassment.
Don't understand AND If he Didnt have a CPL that he should try to keep it covered up better. Typo? Otherwise he would be breaking the law.
smellslikemichigan
Campaign Veteran
what about the reasonableness standard in regards to ANY PERSON ON THE STREET. forget about the officer being able to identify it, what about everyone from the age of 2-92 being able to clearly identify it?
scot623
Regular Member
What other legal activity would you like to be stopped for? Just driving? Why not pull over everyone to be sure they aren't driving on a suspended license? Why not stop everyone walking on the sidewalk to make sure they don't have outstanding warrants? Why not search every house in the city looking for drugs or kidnapped children? There is a reason cops needs reasonable articulable suspicion or probable cause to stop people. This isn't Russia.
DrTodd
Michigan Moderator
If carrying a firearm while on a motorcycle were legal without a cpl, I would agree. I would also agree if more than 80% of those 21+ had a cpl.
Regarding the citation, driving a vehicle with a firearm within reach and walking down the street with a firearm within reach are two very different behaviors in the eyes of the law; one is legal and one is legal ONLY by exception. However, as I stated above, as soon as he determined you had a cpl, and it was indeed you driving, then the interaction should have stopped. BTW, he probably ran the plate and it indicated that the ownwer had a cpl; he checked your license only to see if it was indeed you. Also, one could make a strong argument that if the registered owner had a cpl and the officer received that information BEFORE he stopped you, then the stop MAY have been illegal. But, in court, if the officer gives a statement that the totality of the circumstances indicated to him that you were not the owner, a judge would most likely determine the officer stopped you legally.