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Thread: Why would UVA students need to carry?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Why would UVA students need to carry?

    Oh look, crimes against students without arms:

    Police investigate robbery of UVa students

    Charlottesville police are investigating the robbery of two University of Virginia students on Friday night.

    The victims told police they were approached by two men, one of who was carrying a “cutting instrument”, the release said. The two men demanded the wallet of one of the victims and then ran off, the release said.

    In a message to students and university faculty and staff on Saturday, UVa Police Chief Michael A. Gibson warned students to be aware of their surroundings.

    “While Charlottesville remains a relatively safe environment, crimes do occur in our community,” he said. “The best defense is to be prepared and to take responsibility for your own safety and for that of your friends and fellow students.”
    Gee, a college police chief who (sort of) sounds like Philip Van Cleave.

    Except for the no-gun stuff.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    Oh look, crimes against students without arms:

    Police investigate robbery of UVa students



    Gee, a college police chief who (sort of) sounds like Philip Van Cleave.

    Except for the no-gun stuff.
    That's a huge EXCEPT. :-) It's kind of mind-boggling that he tells people to be prepared but opposes them having a tool to defend against deadly force.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    That's a huge EXCEPT. :-) It's kind of mind-boggling that he tells people to be prepared but opposes them having a tool to defend against deadly force.
    That's Ivory Tower law enforcement for you.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    That's Ivory Tower law enforcement for you.
    A take-away quote. Suggest it bears repeating!

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    Regular Member Jay's Avatar
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    FYI: As a UVA Employee I would just like to point out that this is the third robbery of this type within the past month around campus, and they have all happened in broad daylight. I wish I could carry as part of my job requires me to walk around the grounds.
    "Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again"

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    FYI: As a UVA Employee I would just like to point out that this is the third robbery of this type within the past month around campus, and they have all happened in broad daylight. I wish I could carry as part of my job requires me to walk around the grounds.
    Jay, don't they have those phone kiosks where you can call the campus police and ask for an escort?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Jay, don't they have those phone kiosks where you can call the campus police and ask for an escort?

    stay safe.
    Yep, you just have to find the ones that aren't out of order...
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  8. #8
    Regular Member Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Jay, don't they have those phone kiosks where you can call the campus police and ask for an escort?

    stay safe.

    Yes but I have a sneaky suspicion I won't get robbed while I'm standing on top of one, and with all the walking I have to do I'd probably pee of a lot of people if I asked for an escort everytime.
    "Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again"

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    Yes but I have a sneaky suspicion I won't get robbed while I'm standing on top of one, and with all the walking I have to do I'd probably pee of a lot of people if I asked for an escort everytime.
    They have an escort service because they know the campus is a dangerous place. They have created a means of mitigating that danger to you. Use it - it's better than going out on your own and being the one responsible for whatever happens to you.

    In other words, if they say the only way to be safe on campus is to carry a cop, carry a cop. Perhaps they will see why that will not work so well for them if everybody wants to carry their own cop. Maybe they will try to establish convoy routes so that campus cops/escorts can provide safety to groups instead of individuals. (Ask the Merchant Marines of WWII how effective that was for individual ships as opposed to whole convoys. Wonder what percentage of loss the Board of Visitors will say is acceptable.) If they reach the point where they cannot or will not provide sufficient safe escort yet cannot assure campus safety without escorts, then maybe they will see that they must* allow the individual to provide the means of self protection.

    * "must" as in being told by the courts and their insurance underwriter (which for UVa would be the General Assembly and the taxpayers).

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    They have an escort service because they know the campus is a dangerous place. They have created a means of mitigating that danger to you. Use it - it's better than going out on your own and being the one responsible for whatever happens to you.

    In other words, if they say the only way to be safe on campus is to carry a cop, carry a cop. Perhaps they will see why that will not work so well for them if everybody wants to carry their own cop. Maybe they will try to establish convoy routes so that campus cops/escorts can provide safety to groups instead of individuals. (Ask the Merchant Marines of WWII how effective that was for individual ships as opposed to whole convoys. Wonder what percentage of loss the Board of Visitors will say is acceptable.) If they reach the point where they cannot or will not provide sufficient safe escort yet cannot assure campus safety without escorts, then maybe they will see that they must* allow the individual to provide the means of self protection.

    * "must" as in being told by the courts and their insurance underwriter (which for UVa would be the General Assembly and the taxpayers).

    stay safe.
    SKID you do realize that the university escort service is staffed by students either volunteering or getting paid minimum wage(can't remember which) to staff the van or at least it was back in the mid 90's when i was a student there.

  11. #11
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 67GT390FB View Post
    SKID you do realize that the university escort service is staffed by students either volunteering or getting paid minimum wage(can't remember which) to staff the van or at least it was back in the mid 90's when i was a student there.
    Sounds like a great way to ensure a two-fer robbery instead of just a single victim.

    TFred

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Not only do (did) I realize the escort service is (was) staffed by students/work-study pawns, and that sending them with potential victims creates a two-fer opportunity, I realize that the most recent case law - coming out of the Mary Washington U. rape case - says that Virginia has no duty to protect its students.

    Yes, folks, I am willing to sacrifice some perfectly good students to force a change in policy/regulation. Or, to be more precise, to get the Boards of Visitors to either contemplate that happening or openly state that in fact the campi are dangerous and they (BoV and campus cops) can offer no meaningful protection thus putting students, faculty and staff at their own peril. From there it becomes harder to support continuing the existing policy/regulation.

    Additionally, I think that the fine folks who make up the escort service know they really cannot do anything meaningful to stop crime on campus, but are willing to make the gesture anyhow. Once they are aware that the BoV are willing to throw them to the wolves they just might decide to stop being escorts, which will further force the issue.

    I may not be a Master-level chess player but I can think a few moves ahead. So far it is tactics instead of strategy. Anybody have a better idea to advance?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  13. #13
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Not only do (did) I realize the escort service is (was) staffed by students/work-study pawns, and that sending them with potential victims creates a two-fer opportunity, I realize that the most recent case law - coming out of the Mary Washington U. rape case - says that Virginia has no duty to protect its students.

    Yes, folks, I am willing to sacrifice some perfectly good students to force a change in policy/regulation. Or, to be more precise, to get the Boards of Visitors to either contemplate that happening or openly state that in fact the campi are dangerous and they (BoV and campus cops) can offer no meaningful protection thus putting students, faculty and staff at their own peril. From there it becomes harder to support continuing the existing policy/regulation.

    Additionally, I think that the fine folks who make up the escort service know they really cannot do anything meaningful to stop crime on campus, but are willing to make the gesture anyhow. Once they are aware that the BoV are willing to throw them to the wolves they just might decide to stop being escorts, which will further force the issue.

    I may not be a Master-level chess player but I can think a few moves ahead. So far it is tactics instead of strategy. Anybody have a better idea to advance?

    stay safe.
    Sadly, this is very much like the game VDOT plays with people's lives on the road. They won't install a traffic light at a dangerous intersection until a certain death quota is reached. And even then in some cases they won't do it pending other circumstances.

    How much more morbid can you get? "I'm sorry, not enough people have died yet, you'll have to wait..."

    TFred

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    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Sadly, this is very much like the game VDOT plays with people's lives on the road. They won't install a traffic light at a dangerous intersection until a certain death quota is reached. And even then in some cases they won't do it pending other circumstances.

    How much more morbid can you get? "I'm sorry, not enough people have died yet, you'll have to wait..."

    TFred
    That's not VDOT's fault, it's DMV's fault. If they wouldn't issue driver's licenses to anyone who can fog a mirror, we wouldn't need so many traffic lights...

    Roscoe
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Sadly, this is very much like the game VDOT plays with people's lives on the road. They won't install a traffic light at a dangerous intersection until a certain death quota is reached. And even then in some cases they won't do it pending other circumstances.

    How much more morbid can you get? "I'm sorry, not enough people have died yet, you'll have to wait..."

    TFred
    But it's not until the populace learns that is how VDOT works that any meaingful pressure can be put on them to "do something" about the dangerous intersection - install traffic controls, re-engineer the intersection, or close the road. So once folks learn that those are "the rules" that VDOT plays by they start counting the fatalities and publicizing that VDOT is waiting because we are still at "X-n" and not yet at "X". In the meantime you either continue to take your chances driving through the intersection or you find another route that avoids it.

    If the sheer number of crimes committed on Virginia campi are not sufficient then create a perception that the BoV are just waiting until the number reaches whatever magic tipping point necessary to force them into action. I'm sorry that Virginia's students, faculty and staff will have to suffer until that happens. Or - they could just go somewhere else where it is safer or they are allowed to take responsibility for their own safety because the Powers That Be will not or cannot take that responsibility.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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