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Thread: Told I Can't Carry....

  1. #1
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Told I Can't Carry....

    Howdy Folks!
    Citizen's Academy had the second installment of our 11 week course last night, and we heard from the Victim's Advocates about their work in the aftermath of crime. They gave us a wealth of information and we all took home a file of info for our future reference.

    After that, we had a gentleman who talked about environmental influences on crime in the community. One example involved a woman who was assaulted (sexually) on her own front yard. The reason the assault was fairly easy was because the front of her home was surrounded by tall bushes, and nobody would see the crime taking place right on her own front yard. We then saw quite a few other examples of how the environment can produce an ideal climate for crime to happen. This also gave us an insight to places to be especially watchful. Parking garages with inadequate lighting being another example.

    Anyhow, at the end of the class, the deputy in charge passed out forms for us to fill out because each of us is expected to spend an entire shift with a deputy doing a "ride along". I turned in my paperwork, and she grinned at me and said "You can't carry while on patrol!"

    Evidently, my various remarks about open carry have alerted her to the fact that I do carry.

    During the Victim's Advocate portion of the program, the Advocate asked whether any of us had suffered victimization from a criminal. I told of the night I got robbed at gunpoint and my feelings about that. Later, I explained changes we've made to our home security and our recent addition of CCW permits for each of us in the home. I mentioned that I now carry, usually openly, to send a signal to potential robbers and burglars that we won't simply be victims and very likely to put up a serious defense of our lives and property.

    So it appears that everybody in the group, deputies included, now knows that I openly carry.

    When I do that ride along, one of these Saturdays, I intend to find out how the deputy I ride with thinks about open carry by citizens.
    What a terrific opportunity to learn first hand what an LEO thinks on the subject. And if he isn't well informed about open carry, he certainly will be before the night is over at 2:00am!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Regular Member PikesPeakMtnMan's Avatar
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    I did a ride-along down here with our city department and had a lot of fun. It was really interesting to see the day-to-day operations of police on patrol. This was years ago, back when I was naive about a lot of things. I want to do another one soon, now that I know a bit more....about everything.
    One day your life is going to flash before your eyes, make it worth watching.

  3. #3
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PikesPeakMtnMan View Post
    I did a ride-along down here with our city department and had a lot of fun. It was really interesting to see the day-to-day operations of police on patrol. This was years ago, back when I was naive about a lot of things. I want to do another one soon, now that I know a bit more....about everything.
    Howdy PPMM!
    I know precisely what you are talking about. Now that I know much more than I did before April, I am dying to ask a whole bunch of questions from a working LEO when we spend a shift together. This is particularly true of questions pertaining to OC. I also want to pick his brains on RAS, PC and what his reaction might be if confronted by someone who refuses to provide ID or speak with him on 5th Amendment grounds.

    It will be really intersting to see how he spends an average Saturday night as we ride together around the county.

    They evidently have specific "districts" they cover, and hopefully we'll be in an active one. There is plenty of territory in our county inhabited only by prairie dogs, and they don't get much action out there in what one officer described "the real Adams county!" Guess he didn't figure the more urbanized parts of the county to be real county territory. But that's where stuff happens, so guess I'll know soon enough where we'll be cruising.

    I expect this to be a real learning experience, and an opportunity to get the thinking of an actual working deputy on topics we discuss here all the time. Should be a terrific opportunity and marvelous experience.

    One thing I'd really like is to have a photo of the deputy and the car with me in the shot. But I'd like to have my sidearm in the photograph, simply because that's how I'm most often rigged up! I don't mind locking it up when we go on patrol, but I would like a photo of that ilk for my own personal enjoyment.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    "You can't carry while on patrol!"
    Why?
    Would this "rule" not be a violation of preemption?

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    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    One thing I'd really like is to have a photo of the deputy and the car with me in the shot. But I'd like to have my sidearm in the photograph, simply because that's how I'm most often rigged up! I don't mind locking it up when we go on patrol, but I would like a photo of that ilk for my own personal enjoyment.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Could always get the wife to take the pic and then take the sidearm right before you start out...

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    I've talked to a LEO about carry and the constitution/4th amendment - you don't get far with them. They think stuttering while giving them information on where you're driving to is probable cause to search your vehicle. The LEO I talked to, regardless of citing laws, is absolutely convinced that you cannot be in posession of a hand gun under the age of 21. No ifs ands or buts.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by M-Taliesin
    "You can't carry while on patrol!"





    Quote Originally Posted by Kingfish View Post
    Why?
    Would this "rule" not be a violation of preemption?
    Most likely not, because you are dealing with municipal liability issues and the fact that ride-alongs are voluntary, not mandatory. The last thing you want to do during a ride-along is have to start doing law enforcement stuff, even if it's picking up the radio mike and yelling "10-13, officer down!", let alone screwing up their bust by talking to or touching the perp. Hopefully M-Taliesin will get a decent pre-ride briefing and understand that the LEO he will be riding with will be spending most of the shift trying NOT to expose him to any kind of risk. The LEO might do a traffic stop or two, but will most likely be under orders not to do high speed chases with him in the vehicle, or be anything but last on the scene of something as "simple" as a crash, let alone an active event.

    Ride-alongs are not for the purpose of letting citizens play cops and robbers but to let the LEA blow their horn and tell folks what a wonderful organization they are and what a great job they do. Hopefully the officer he gets to ride with is knowledgeable and knows what his department says is OK to talk about and what is not. It really sucks to be told "You'll have to take that up with ____ when we get back" all the time.

    M-Taliesin - at least see if they will let you turn on the lights & siren at some time during your ride.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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  8. #8
    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Originally Posted by M-Taliesin
    "You can't carry while on patrol!"







    Most likely not, because you are dealing with municipal liability issues and the fact that ride-alongs are voluntary, not mandatory. The last thing you want to do during a ride-along is have to start doing law enforcement stuff, even if it's picking up the radio mike and yelling "10-13, officer down!", let alone screwing up their bust by talking to or touching the perp. Hopefully M-Taliesin will get a decent pre-ride briefing and understand that the LEO he will be riding with will be spending most of the shift trying NOT to expose him to any kind of risk. The LEO might do a traffic stop or two, but will most likely be under orders not to do high speed chases with him in the vehicle, or be anything but last on the scene of something as "simple" as a crash, let alone an active event.

    Ride-alongs are not for the purpose of letting citizens play cops and robbers but to let the LEA blow their horn and tell folks what a wonderful organization they are and what a great job they do. Hopefully the officer he gets to ride with is knowledgeable and knows what his department says is OK to talk about and what is not. It really sucks to be told "You'll have to take that up with ____ when we get back" all the time.

    M-Taliesin - at least see if they will let you turn on the lights & siren at some time during your ride.

    stay safe.
    Next time you may want to split your comments. Unless you are implying that I was under the impression that participating in a ride along deputized the citizen. What about my question suggested a legal carrier being "allowed" to carry would "start doing law enforcement stuff"?

    Going into the Colorado Springs municipal building to get a marriage license is voluntary but they still cannot deny a lawful carrier from entry (with carry permit-No OC) unless they put up metal detectors....Kinda hard to do in a cruiser. I could see them limiting OC INSIDE a cruiser if they put up a sign on the window but I just don't see how they can prohibit CC with a permit.

    Is the municipality taking 100% legal responsibility for the safety of the citizen while on the ride along?

    You are right. The ride along program is voluntary...LE does not have to do them at all. I see no where in the US or state constitutions or laws that allows then to make a rule that a LAC may not carry during a ride along. That is unless one subscribes to the notion that we are the servants and the government is the master.

  9. #9
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingfish View Post
    Why?
    Would this "rule" not be a violation of preemption?
    Howdy Parnder!
    I don't think preemption applies in this situation. Preemption prevents local jurisdictions from creating ordinances or municipal codes that infringe on the state's higher interest in preserving the rights of the individual. Since this isn't an ordinance or municipal code, but rather, what I believe to be a matter of policy, I figure they can do this in order for citizens to ride along with an officer on patrol.

    Then there is the whole matter of insurance. An officer would be covered by the LEA's insurance if he was required to use his weapon, whereas I am not because I am not employed by the department. If liability isn't enough of an issue as pertains to insurance, there is also the liability of civil action if I were to use my own weapon for some reason. If I did something silly with my firearm, and somebody innocent type got hurt, the county would be liable for civil action that could prove costly.

    There are probably many other reasons of which I am unaware, but it does beg the question: If something happens to the officer, and he is down, and an assailant notices I am along for the ride, what am I supposed to use apart from the dumb look on my face? Use harsh language?

    Guess I'll know more in a few days as my evening with a patrol deputy happens this coming Saturday, from 5pm to 3am! Guess I'll find out what happens then!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  10. #10
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Hopefully M-Taliesin will get a decent pre-ride briefing and understand that the LEO he will be riding with will be spending most of the shift trying NOT to expose him to any kind of risk.

    Howdy Amigo!
    I am not really interested in finding myself in the middle of a firefight or some other serious situation.
    Especially when unarmed. I believe your analysis of what to expect is likely dead on target.
    So I won't fret too much about it, but enjoy the opportunity and try to learn some things.
    And yeah, they will be doing a pre-ride briefing. I learned that much today when I got the call.
    Looks like I'll be out with a deputy on Saturday between 5pm and 3am!

    Ride-alongs are not for the purpose of letting citizens play cops and robbers

    I'd have very little ambition to play cops and robbers, and am perfectly content to let the deputy deal with any nastiness.
    I carry a sidearm for my own personal protection because cops are frequently not around when the stuff comes down.
    But since I'll just happen to have a deputy handy, then he can take real good care of my little Irish backside!


    M-Taliesin - at least see if they will let you turn on the lights & siren at some time during your ride.
    stay safe.


    I am not too horny to play with the lights and siren. I just want to learn from the experience and possibly enlighten the deputy on life and arms from the civilian point of view.

    Thanks for your post! Much obliged. I enjoyed it.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Last edited by M-Taliesin; 08-19-2011 at 02:13 AM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingfish View Post
    I see no where in the US or state constitutions or laws that allows then to make a rule that a LAC may not carry during a ride along. That is unless one subscribes to the notion that we are the servants and the government is the master.
    Howdy Kingfish!
    I wish I knew more about the topic to answer your questions, but I can only make conjecture. You raise some real interesting points, and I surely wish I had better information to share, but at this moment, I surely don't.

    Perhaps I'll learn more when I'm out with the deputy on patrol Saturday night.

    Perhaps he'll know the answers to the question you raise.
    Meanwhile, I'll be leaving my weapon in my car locked up and snugged away.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    After that, we had a gentleman who talked about environmental influences on crime in the community...
    Gee. Was this gentleman completely unaware of the fact that OC is itself an "environmental influence on crime in the community," and a positive influence at that, being that it deters crime?

    I do understand not being able to carry while on Citizens Patrol. It's a liability issue for the department if a citizen riding in a police car would up doing something foolish. We'd like to think we're perfect, but stories exist which show us that we're not. Of course, even some well-trained policemen aren't, either, but they've got to draw the line somewhere.

    When I do that ride along, one of these Saturdays, I intend to find out how the deputy I ride with thinks about open carry by citizens.
    What a terrific opportunity to learn first hand what an LEO thinks on the subject. And if he isn't well informed about open carry, he certainly will be before the night is over at 2:00am!
    Good approach. Just remember, less information is often more enticing than a deluge of information.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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