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Spread Sheet - County/City Ordinances - Stop & ID, CHP Reqs, Airguns, & Park Bans

jmelvin

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
2,195
Location
Lynchburg, Virginia, USA
I'm just getting a chance to read this thread tboroughly and want to say thank you to sesrun for his effort. It appears this may adress some of the same issues I identified on the spreadsheet I started in the spring, but not all. :)
 

TFred

Regular Member
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Messages
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Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
[snip]

Town of Leesburg
Mr. Bourg,

The Town Code was amended in June to comport with the State Code. Municode updates the Town Code online on a quarterly basis so the amendments are not yet reflected on the website. To read several code amendments that occurred in June, click on Ordinance No. 2011-O-013 on the Town website. In the meantime, the section you cite in your email now states:

Sec. 26-24 (5) Hunting and firearms.

No person in a park shall hunt, trap or pursue wildlife at any time. No person within a park shall carry or possess bow and arrows, slings, or similar weapon or any kind of trapping device. Discharging firearms into park areas from beyond park property boundaries is forbidden. Discharging a firearm in violation of Virginia Code Section 18.2-280 is prohibited. No person within a park shall conceal weapons in violation of Virginia Code Section 18.2-308. No person shall discharge a pneumatic gun in the park pursuant to Virginia Code Section 15.2-915.4.

If you have any further questions or comments, please let me know.

Barbara Notar
[snip]
After discussing this issue with User off-line, I believe we have both reached the conclusion that localities that have ordinances that copy or refer to the state's 18.2-308 are in violation of 15.2-915.

In just a quick look of my nearby local ordinances, I found Stafford has a "miniature copy" of 18.2-308 in their ordinances. This Leesburg code above references it, but since 15.2-915 is clear that localities may not themselves regulate the carry of firearms, it appears to be in violation.

Has anyone else noted, or even looked to see if their localities have "copies" of 18.2-308? It is not always cut and dried, because they are allowed to require fingerprints. Some reference to the permitting process must be made for that. It can be a fuzzy line.

If we find enough localities with this particular violation, perhaps we should track it separately? Just a thought for now.

Comments?

TFred
 

Blk97F150

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
1,179
Location
Virginia
This just in.... tomorrow night (Sept 27) the Spotsylvania Board of Supervisors will discuss a proposed change to the county code to bring their code into compliance regarding the 'air gun ban'. Interestingly enough, at first read their proposed code is VERY similar to the Williamsburg code (are these guys in cahoots with each other?? LOL!).

Links:
Executive SummaryProposed Code

Unfortunately I have a prior commitment... that I might not be able to change... so I'm not sure if I can make the meeting or not. Anyone? Fred?
 

Jonesy

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
416
Location
Alexandria, Virginia, USA
After discussing this issue with User off-line, I believe we have both reached the conclusion that localities that have ordinances that copy or refer to the state's 18.2-308 are in violation of 15.2-915.

In just a quick look of my nearby local ordinances, I found Stafford has a "miniature copy" of 18.2-308 in their ordinances. This Leesburg code above references it, but since 15.2-915 is clear that localities may not themselves regulate the carry of firearms, it appears to be in violation.

Has anyone else noted, or even looked to see if their localities have "copies" of 18.2-308? It is not always cut and dried, because they are allowed to require fingerprints. Some reference to the permitting process must be made for that. It can be a fuzzy line.

If we find enough localities with this particular violation, perhaps we should track it separately? Just a thought for now.

Comments?

TFred

Alexandria has a mini version of 18.2-308 in their code as well, see http://library.municode.com/HTML/10...EPR.html#TIT13MIOF_CH2WE_ARTAGEPR_S13-2-1COWE

They also have the following provision seeming to violate 15.2-915

Sec. 13-2-6 - Transporting loaded weapons.
It shall be unlawful for any person to transport, possess or carry a loaded shotgun or loaded rifle in any vehicle on any public street, road or highway in the city. The provisions of this section shall not apply to duly authorized law enforcement officers or military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, or to any person who reasonably believes that a loaded rifle or shotgun is necessary for his personal safety in the course of his employment or business. Any person violating this section shall be punished by a fine not to exceed $100. (Ord. No. 3432, 1/20/90, Sec. 1)

All of 13-2(B) Transfer or sale of pistols or revolvers This has all kinds of requirements not just for dealers but for private sales

13-2(D) Air guns
13-2(E) Ammunition

I will be contacting Alexandria.
 
Last edited:

Blk97F150

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
1,179
Location
Virginia
This just in.... tomorrow night (Sept 27) the Spotsylvania Board of Supervisors will discuss a proposed change to the county code to bring their code into compliance regarding the 'air gun ban'. Interestingly enough, at first read their proposed code is VERY similar to the Williamsburg code (are these guys in cahoots with each other?? LOL!).

Links:
Executive SummaryProposed Code

I was able to make it to the Spotsylvania BOS meeting tonight. It turned out to be quick and easy... they voted to hold a public hearing on the proposed changes.

One interesting note, the County Attorney stated that he did get feedback from other localities and said the proposed code change is almost identical to the Lynchburg code.
 

Jonesy

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
416
Location
Alexandria, Virginia, USA
Are the jurisdictions still allowed to require fingerprinting for a chp? Someone mentioned the "fingerprinting issue" could someone enlighten me?
 
Last edited:

Wolf_shadow

Activist Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
1,215
Location
Accomac, Virginia, USA
Are the jurisdictions still allowed to require fingerprinting for a chp? Someone mentioned the "fingerprinting issue" could someone enlighten me?
Under the current state code the local jurisdictions are allowed to require fingerprinting for first time applicants only. They cannot require fingerprinting for renewal applications.

John
 

Blk97F150

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
1,179
Location
Virginia
The City Council for the City of Winchester will vote on a proposed code ammenment to their 'air gun ban' during the council meeting on Oct 11. The Councilman I have been working with anticipates no problems with its passage! WOOHOO! :banana:

Many thanks to the Winchester City Council, with a special mention to Councilman Milt McInturff. He was extremely helpful throughout this process and provided me with frequent updates on where this issue stood. This code change had the support of the local police department too (unlike another locality I'm working on... :uhoh: ).

Proposed new code (underlined text is the new portion)

WHEREAS, the Chief of Police has presented a recommendation that the City’s Ordinance be amended to parallel the requirements of the current version of §15.2-915.4.

NOW therefore belt ORDAINED that Section 16-8 of the Winchester City Code is hereby amended and re-adopted as follows:

SECTION 16-8. DISCHARGE OF AIR GUN, GRAVEL SHOOTER OR SIMILAR INSTRUMENT.

Except as otherwise excluded under 15.2-915.4 of the Code of Virginia, it shall be unlawful and a Class 3 misdemeanor for any person anywhere within the City to discharge any shot. bullet, gravel or any similar thing from an air gun. eravel shooter or other similar instrument.
 

TFred

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Joined
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Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
For any who are communicating with officials on changing these air gun codes, it may be worthwhile to point them to the last section of the legislation that enacted these changes:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?111+ful+CHAP0832

The section states:


2. That notwithstanding any other provision of law, general or special, any local ordinance adopted prior to the effective date of this act that prohibits the use of pneumatic guns on or within private property with permission of the owner or legal possessor of the property when conducted with reasonable care to prevent a projectile from crossing the bounds of the property shall be invalid.


What this means is that they can hem and haw all they want to about bringing their local codes into compliance, but this law makes any non-compliant ordinances invalid, right now. So until they fix it, it literally is not enforceable anyway.

TFred
 

TFred

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Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
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Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
The City Council for the City of Winchester will vote on a proposed code ammenment to their 'air gun ban' during the council meeting on Oct 11. The Councilman I have been working with anticipates no problems with its passage! WOOHOO! :banana:

Many thanks to the Winchester City Council, with a special mention to Councilman Milt McInturff. He was extremely helpful throughout this process and provided me with frequent updates on where this issue stood. This code change had the support of the local police department too (unlike another locality I'm working on... :uhoh: ).

Proposed new code (underlined text is the new portion)

WHEREAS, the Chief of Police has presented a recommendation that the City’s Ordinance be amended to parallel the requirements of the current version of §15.2-915.4.

NOW therefore belt ORDAINED that Section 16-8 of the Winchester City Code is hereby amended and re-adopted as follows:

SECTION 16-8. DISCHARGE OF AIR GUN, GRAVEL SHOOTER OR SIMILAR INSTRUMENT.

Except as otherwise excluded under 15.2-915.4 of the Code of Virginia, it shall be unlawful and a Class 3 misdemeanor for any person anywhere within the City to discharge any shot. bullet, gravel or any similar thing from an air gun. eravel shooter or other similar instrument.
While this might technically meet the requirement, I am not a fan of fixing this by obscure reference to the State Code. This makes it too easy for an ordinary citizen to look up the local ordinance and see only the "IT'S ILLEGAL" part, and not even be aware that they need to continue searching for the reference that gives the exceptions.

It's sneaky, and that is not what laws should be.

TFred
 

TFred

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Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
This just in.... tomorrow night (Sept 27) the Spotsylvania Board of Supervisors will discuss a proposed change to the county code to bring their code into compliance regarding the 'air gun ban'. Interestingly enough, at first read their proposed code is VERY similar to the Williamsburg code (are these guys in cahoots with each other?? LOL!).

Links:
Executive SummaryProposed Code

Unfortunately I have a prior commitment... that I might not be able to change... so I'm not sure if I can make the meeting or not. Anyone? Fred?
I was out of town myself. Not sure I can make the Public Hearing on the 11th, that's the night of my annual HOA meeting.

The proposed new ordinance for air guns has additionally defined what they consider to be "reasonable care", which is not included in the State Code. It would be interesting to see how they respond to the question of why they think they have the authority to define what the General Assembly has chosen to not define, being a Dillon Rule state and all...

Spotsylvania does have a few subdivisions with lots large enough to safely shoot a BB gun without an actual backstop in place.

TFred


(B) Pneumatic guns may be used at facilities approved for shooting ranges, or on
or within private property with permission of the owner or legal possessor. Use thereof
must be conducted with reasonable care to prevent a projectile from crossing the bounds
of the property. "Reasonable care" means that the gun is being discharged so that the
projectile will be contained on the property by a backstop, earthen embankment, or fence.

The discharge of projectiles across or over the bounds of the property shall create the
rebuttable presumption that the use of the pneumatic gun was not conducted with
reasonable care. Minors may use such implements only under the following conditions:
 

Blk97F150

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
1,179
Location
Virginia
While this might technically meet the requirement, I am not a fan of fixing this by obscure reference to the State Code. This makes it too easy for an ordinary citizen to look up the local ordinance and see only the "IT'S ILLEGAL" part, and not even be aware that they need to continue searching for the reference that gives the exceptions.

It's sneaky, and that is not what laws should be.

TFred

<Shrug> Their 'fix' doesn't bother me too much. In the end they did correct it to comply with state code... even if they did take a short-cut. I'm considering this one 'corrected' (once it passes final vote)... and moving on to the other localities I have in the works. I have others going to keep me busy for a while.. :D

If you would like to contact them and try to get it ammended to your satisfaction, have at it. If you need any of the point of contact names, etc that I used... I can pass them along.
 

Blk97F150

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
1,179
Location
Virginia
For any who are communicating with officials on changing these air gun codes, it may be worthwhile to point them to the last section of the legislation that enacted these changes:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?111+ful+CHAP0832

The section states:


2. That notwithstanding any other provision of law, general or special, any local ordinance adopted prior to the effective date of this act that prohibits the use of pneumatic guns on or within private property with permission of the owner or legal possessor of the property when conducted with reasonable care to prevent a projectile from crossing the bounds of the property shall be invalid.


What this means is that they can hem and haw all they want to about bringing their local codes into compliance, but this law makes any non-compliant ordinances invalid, right now. So until they fix it, it literally is not enforceable anyway.

TFred

Fred, any idea if the Section (2) you mentioned made the final approved version? Its not shown on this link:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+15.2-915.4

I have a locality that is 'resisting' my request to change their air gun code.... I'd love to point out the section you posted, but I want to make sure that was the final version that was passed/signed.

Thnx.
Mike
 

TFred

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Messages
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Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
Fred, any idea if the Section (2) you mentioned made the final approved version? Its not shown on this link:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+15.2-915.4

I have a locality that is 'resisting' my request to change their air gun code.... I'd love to point out the section you posted, but I want to make sure that was the final version that was passed/signed.

Thnx.
Mike
User sent a note to someone in Richmond about it. The link to the Chapter is what was actually passed by the GA. Apparently it is an LIS error that the second part was not included. If you look at the code, there is a live link at the bottom of the page that points to the Chapter, which does include paragraph 2. I'm not a legislative expert, but apparently the Chapter was the law that was actually passed, directing the change to the 915.4 section of code, and also specifying the penalty for not complying.

Both are equally valid, and you can certainly refer them to the Chapter link for proof.

When the Fredericksburg City Attorney made her presentation to the City Council, that is what she started with... the fact that the law makes any non-compliant air gun laws invalid until/unless they are changed.

If you'd like additional support, I can probably dig up the City Council agenda item that Fredericksburg used, which includes the City Attorney's explanation of the whole thing.

TFred
 

Blk97F150

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Dec 21, 2010
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Location
Virginia
Ok, great. Thanks! I replied to that locality this morning asking them to further explain how their current code doesn't violate state code. We'll see what their response is... then I'll drop the second part of 15.2-915.4 on them if I need too. :banana:
 

TFred

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Messages
7,750
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Most historic town in, Virginia, USA

TFred

Regular Member
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Very good info. I'll use that if necessary (although I thought it was interesting that the City Attorney used the 'BB Guns are dangerous' tactic, and provided a Consumer Product Safety Alert.).

Thanks again.
I agree, and thought the same thing exactly. I really didn't understand what part that played in the situation. They had to change the ordinance, a fact which the mayor even observed out loud with a chuckle after her presentation: "We don't really have a choice here, do we?" BB gun statistics and alerts had no bearing on the matter at all.

One thing that was interesting, not in the report, when she presented it to the council, she said in the past year, the City PD had made 4 arrests for the existing ordinance, and none of them would have been affected by the changes. In other words, at least for the past year's data, these changes would not affect any public safety concerns.

TFred
 

Jonesy

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Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
416
Location
Alexandria, Virginia, USA
I today wrote back to the Alexandria City Attorney, who had put me off for 2 weeks, was very polite but told him I would be writing to entire city council if I do not get a response by October 20.
 
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