Keep after them. I think some of these localities think that if they ignore you... you will 'just go away'. One locality that I am working on regarding their 'park gun ban' has ignored all of my email communications for the last month. I just mailed the County Administrator a USPS Certified Return Receipt letter with copies of each email, a copy of their improper county code, and a copy of the state code 15.2-915 (with the section that states a judge can award expneses, etc... highlighted in yellow!). :uhoh:
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Spread Sheet - County/City Ordinances - Stop & ID, CHP Reqs, Airguns, & Park Bans
- Thread starter Sesrun
- Start date
Keep after them. I think some of these localities think that if they ignore you... you will 'just go away'. One locality that I am working on regarding their 'park gun ban' has ignored all of my email communications for the last month. I just mailed the County Administrator a USPS Certified Return Receipt letter with copies of each email, a copy of their improper county code, and a copy of the state code 15.2-915 (with the section that states a judge can award expneses, etc... highlighted in yellow!). :uhoh:
TFred
Regular Member
The amusing part of all this (if you are talking about their air gun ordinance) is that UNTIL they update it to comply, the existing ordinance is invalid, and unenforceable anyway! We really are doing them a favor here.
TFred
Marco
Regular Member
Email sent to Greene County Board of Supervisors 10/09/2011
Greene County Board of Supervisors,
I wanted to bring your attention to Ordinance section:
Sec. 54-1. Discharge of firearms.
(a) Prohibited areas. The discharge of firearms, air-operated or gas-operated weapons of any nature whatsoever shall be prohibited in the following areas: Locust Lane Subdivision and the adjoining R-2 zoning district in Midway Acres Subdivision, more fully described in an exhibit filed with a copy of the ordinance from which this section derives in the office of the county administrator
I believe it is in violation of following state law:
As of July 1, 2011 SB757 went into effect. I believe the new state code is as follows:
§ 15.2-915.4. Counties, cities and towns authorized to regulate use of pneumatic guns.
A. A locality may prohibit, by ordinance, the shooting of pneumatic guns in any areas of the locality that are in the opinion of the governing body so heavily populated as to make such conduct dangerous to the inhabitants thereof, and may require supervision by a parent, guardian, or other adult supervisor approved by a parent or guardian of any minor below the age of 16 in all uses of pneumatic guns on private or public property. The ordinance may specify that minors above the age of 16 may, with the written consent of a parent or guardian, use a pneumatic gun at any place designated for such use by the local governing body or on private property with the consent of the owner. The ordinance may specify that any minor, whether permitted by a parent or guardian to use a pneumatic gun or not, shall be responsible for obeying all laws, regulations and restrictions governing such use. Any penalty for a pneumatic gun offense set forth in such an ordinance shall not exceed a Class 3 misdemeanor.
B. No such ordinance authorized by subsection A shall prohibit the use of pneumatic guns at facilities approved for shooting ranges, on other property where firearms may be discharged, or on or within private property with permission of the owner or legal possessor thereof when conducted with reasonable care to prevent a projectile from crossing the bounds of the property.
Could you please let me know how Greene County plans to correct this situation.
Sincerely,
Marco
Stanardsville Resident
Next BoS meeting is 10/11 I'll try to attend.
Greene County Board of Supervisors,
I wanted to bring your attention to Ordinance section:
Sec. 54-1. Discharge of firearms.
(a) Prohibited areas. The discharge of firearms, air-operated or gas-operated weapons of any nature whatsoever shall be prohibited in the following areas: Locust Lane Subdivision and the adjoining R-2 zoning district in Midway Acres Subdivision, more fully described in an exhibit filed with a copy of the ordinance from which this section derives in the office of the county administrator
I believe it is in violation of following state law:
As of July 1, 2011 SB757 went into effect. I believe the new state code is as follows:
§ 15.2-915.4. Counties, cities and towns authorized to regulate use of pneumatic guns.
A. A locality may prohibit, by ordinance, the shooting of pneumatic guns in any areas of the locality that are in the opinion of the governing body so heavily populated as to make such conduct dangerous to the inhabitants thereof, and may require supervision by a parent, guardian, or other adult supervisor approved by a parent or guardian of any minor below the age of 16 in all uses of pneumatic guns on private or public property. The ordinance may specify that minors above the age of 16 may, with the written consent of a parent or guardian, use a pneumatic gun at any place designated for such use by the local governing body or on private property with the consent of the owner. The ordinance may specify that any minor, whether permitted by a parent or guardian to use a pneumatic gun or not, shall be responsible for obeying all laws, regulations and restrictions governing such use. Any penalty for a pneumatic gun offense set forth in such an ordinance shall not exceed a Class 3 misdemeanor.
B. No such ordinance authorized by subsection A shall prohibit the use of pneumatic guns at facilities approved for shooting ranges, on other property where firearms may be discharged, or on or within private property with permission of the owner or legal possessor thereof when conducted with reasonable care to prevent a projectile from crossing the bounds of the property.
Could you please let me know how Greene County plans to correct this situation.
Sincerely,
Marco
Stanardsville Resident
Next BoS meeting is 10/11 I'll try to attend.
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TFred
Regular Member
Don't forget to also show them Chapter 832, which specifies that any existing ordinances not in compliance are invalid.
TFred
Marco
Regular Member
I plan to be at the meeting if they bark at removing that nonsense.
What I don't get is there are archery practice ranges in more yards than one could count, why would they restrict air guns and not archery.
Not that I want archery restricted but the logic behind the method is lacking..
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Wolf_shadow
Activist Member
I sent this to the Accomack County Board of Supervisors:
Received no answer from any of the Supervisors, so I sent it again yesturday, with the lead in:
Then I received an email from Supervisor Thornton:
My reply:
Not another word so far. Guess I'll be ignored again now. I am unable to attend BOS meetings as they are held durring my work hours. Considering letters to the editor of local papers, not sure if that will help though.
Received no answer from any of the Supervisors, so I sent it again yesturday, with the lead in:
Then I received an email from Supervisor Thornton:
My reply:
Not another word so far. Guess I'll be ignored again now. I am unable to attend BOS meetings as they are held durring my work hours. Considering letters to the editor of local papers, not sure if that will help though.
Jonesy
Regular Member
So I got a response from the Alexandria City Attorney, which reads as follows:
"Unfortunately, our code, like the codes of most states and the federal government , contains provisions that are outdated. First, law enforcement does not enforce those provisions. Second, we amend or repeal such provisions when appropriate. We will handle the provisions you have cited in this same manner. Thank you for your previous communications."
Basically telling me to go away, they will amend or repeal "when appropriate." Keep in mind, they have ordinances governing the transfer or sale of pistols or revolvers, airguns, ammunition, concealed weapons and transporting loaded weapons. Any thoughts on how to proceed? Write to city council seems like a good next step.
"Unfortunately, our code, like the codes of most states and the federal government , contains provisions that are outdated. First, law enforcement does not enforce those provisions. Second, we amend or repeal such provisions when appropriate. We will handle the provisions you have cited in this same manner. Thank you for your previous communications."
Basically telling me to go away, they will amend or repeal "when appropriate." Keep in mind, they have ordinances governing the transfer or sale of pistols or revolvers, airguns, ammunition, concealed weapons and transporting loaded weapons. Any thoughts on how to proceed? Write to city council seems like a good next step.
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TFred
Regular Member
Sounds like the City Council needs to be made aware of the fact that they need to hire a new City Attorney.
Perhaps you could write an identical letter to each council member, stating that you have informed the City Attorney of the city's exposure to litigation and possible court order to compensate legal fees for a court case they will most certainly lose, and suggest that they take action to clean up their outdated code before someone who wants to make some money gets wind of it and sues.
Just my thoughts...
TFred
Jonesy
Regular Member
In my initial letter to the City Attorney, I did not point out the provision providing for reasonable attorneys fees and costs as I did not want to seem too pushy, instead just pointed out the provisions and how they seem to be in conflict with Va law. Maybe, based on his response, I should ask him if I can ignore all Alexandria ordinances, and if not, how do I or other citizens know which ones are valid? I could also then point out the provision providing for reasonable attorneys fees and costs.
TFred
Regular Member
For some reason, I don't expect this person has much of a sense of humor. If it were me handling this, I would conclude that I have the answer I am going to get from the City Attorney, and it is now time to move on. Just my thoughts, of course, you should do what you perceive to be the most likely to produce the desired result.
ETA: The City Attorney had ample opportunity to discover the city's potential exposure, it's not your job to do all their research for them! If they are surprised by the revelation, then lesson learned: Do your homework!
TFred
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Jonesy
Regular Member
For some reason, I don't expect this person has much of a sense of humor. If it were me handling this, I would conclude that I have the answer I am going to get from the City Attorney, and it is now time to move on. Just my thoughts, of course, you should do what you perceive to be the most likely to produce the desired result.
ETA: The City Attorney had ample opportunity to discover the city's potential exposure, it's not your job to do all their research for them! If they are surprised by the revelation, then lesson learned: Do your homework!
TFred
I will give him another chance before writing to City Council. Here is what I sent:
Dear Mr. XXX,
Thank you for your reply. If the citizens of Alexandria don't know which ordinances are valid, how are we to determine which ones to comply with? Are you suggesting that we can ignore all of the ordinances pertaining to weapons, or do we have to somehow figure out which ones we must comply with? For example, 13-2-23 has provisions one must comply with for the sale of pistols or revolvers including filling out and delivering an application to the Chief of Police. Can this ordinance be ignored? Should I just ignore all Alexandria ordinances? I think the answer is no.
I would like to point out that the legislature included a C providing for the award of costs and attorneys fees for challenging and prevailing against such ordinances in § 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies:
C. In addition to any other relief provided, the court may award reasonable attorney fees, expenses, and court costs to any person, group, or entity that prevails in an action challenging (i) an ordinance, resolution, or motion as being in conflict with this section or (ii) an administrative action taken in bad faith as being in conflict with this section. http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+15.2-915
I am happy to help by pointing out the weapons related ordinances that seem to violate Virginia law, as I did in my first e-mail. I believe that any such ordinances that are invalid under Virginia law should be repealed as soon as possible so that citizens can know which provisions they must comply with. This does not seem unreasonable to me.
I look forward to your response.
Sincerely,
XXX
TFred
Regular Member
Ha ha, and of course the answer to your question (bolded above) is YES, as 15.2-915 invalidates that one as well!
TFred
City of Charlottesville - 'air gun ban'
The City Council for the City of Charlottesville will be acting on a proposed code ammendment regarding their 'air gun ban' during the Council meeting on Oct 17th.
Attached is the proposed new code section (VERY similar to proposed code changes in other areas...).
I'll post an update as soon as I learn the outcome. (if anyone wants to attend the meeting... that would be cool....).
The City Council for the City of Charlottesville will be acting on a proposed code ammendment regarding their 'air gun ban' during the Council meeting on Oct 17th.
Attached is the proposed new code section (VERY similar to proposed code changes in other areas...).
I'll post an update as soon as I learn the outcome. (if anyone wants to attend the meeting... that would be cool....).
Jonesy
Regular Member
Of course I picked one of the numerous invalid provisions.
Marco
Regular Member
said:
I'll try and make it to that meeting.
I went to the Greene County BoS meeting yesterday unfortunately I didn't see the sign up sheet to speak so I missed my chance.
However, after the meeting I spoke with Bart Svoboda who stated he would forward my info up the chain to the County attorney for review.
After Bart looked over the items he stated the most likely route would be to remove the air gun restrictions completely and just reference state law, this way there would likely be no other issues done the road
I'll be attending every BoS meeting until the issue is resolved.
~Marco
Wolf_shadow
Activist Member
Received Today
I'm trying to craft a reply, and suggestions are appreciated. So far I have:
TFred
Regular Member
I can understand the County Attorney's confusion. You're mixing apples and oranges, and trying to buy them from the baker.
There are no hard and fast rules for this, but typical guidelines I would suggest:
If you are trying to have a current ordinance that is in violation of State Law corrected, I would start with the City/County/Town Attorney, because it is their job to represent the interest of their jurisdiction, and keep them out of trouble. Violating State Law can cause them trouble.
If you are trying to change an existing ordinance that in all aspects does comply with State Law, but you just don't think it's a good ordinance, then you need to find a friendly member of the local legislative body, (Board of Supervisors, City/Town Council). Pitch your idea for change to them, provide them supporting evidence, ask them to solicit opinions of other council members and the jurisdiction's staff, then if you are successful, they will begin the process to change the local ordinance to your liking.
For administrative issues, such as the Sheriff's office inconvenient hours, the County Attorney is correct, you will need to address those issues with the Sheriff.
What you want to do is gather allies and build consensus. Suggestion: Talk to the Sheriff about the fingerprinting, discuss how inconvenient it is for both the citizen AND their deputies. Ask what value the fingerprints provide to the CHP process. If you are lucky, you will have an ally that will support a change to repeal the requirement who might even be willing to come to the BoS meeting and speak in support.
Remember, these fine folks (for the most part) are just trying to do their jobs. Satisfying any particular agenda is very low on their total list of things to do.
JMHO,
TFred
If you can, that would be great! Thanks!
TFred
Regular Member
OT, but...
...am I losing my mind, or didn't this thread used to be a "Sticky?"
This is a long-term work in progress...
Just curious, it's easy enough to find if you know to look for it.
TFred
...am I losing my mind, or didn't this thread used to be a "Sticky?"
This is a long-term work in progress...
Just curious, it's easy enough to find if you know to look for it.
TFred