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Thread: DOJ FAQ for LEO's. Am I missing something?

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    Exclamation DOJ FAQ for LEO's. Am I missing something?

    LE CCW FAQ 8.1.11.pdf

    If this is not the first time this is posted, I am sorry I have not seen this. I got this from a LEO friend of mine.

    "20. Can a citizen transport a concealed, loaded, unsheathed, handgun in his her vehicle?
    Yes. A person with a CCW license can carry a concealed weapon in their car though a long gun must still be loaded and unsheathed. Under the new law, even a person without a CCW license can carry a handgun or load a handgun in his/her vehicle, so long as the weapon is not concealed, meaning that the weapon is not within reach. However firearms, other than handguns, still must be unloaded and sheathed in a vehicle, whether the person is a CCW license holder or not. 167.31(2)"

    The not within reach thing is still got me upset. Does that mean I have to take it out of one holster on my belt and move it to another and put it in the back seat of my sedan? What?! I can still reach the dash, the passenger seat and the like. This takes all the guessing out of what the DOJ means by car carry without a license.
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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    This is wrong. The Wisconsin Supreme Court established a "three prong" test. Not a one prong test.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xd40 neenah View Post
    LE CCW FAQ 8.1.11.pdf
    Under the new law, even a person without a CCW license can carry a handgun or load a handgun in his/her vehicle, so long as the weapon is not concealed, meaning that the weapon is not within reach.
    It must not be within reach AND hidden (and you are aware of its presence), otherwise it is considered "concealed"

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    I thought that ANYWHERE inside a vehicle is considered concealed in wisconsin, even if it's sitting on the dashboard or the front seat or back seat? Or is that what we are trying to get clarification from the AG on. As it reads now, to me it sounds like if you don't have a permit the weapon cannot be in reach anywhere in your vehicle.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwguy11 View Post
    I thought that ANYWHERE inside a vehicle is considered concealed in wisconsin, even if it's sitting on the dashboard or the front seat or back seat? Or is that what we are trying to get clarification from the AG on. As it reads now, to me it sounds like if you don't have a permit the weapon cannot be in reach anywhere in your vehicle.
    What we are trying to get clarification from teh AG is if a handgun in an open carry holster on the belt insided a vehilce would or would not be considered concealed. On the dash cannot be concealed because it is clearly not hidden from view.

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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    New subject = new discussion

    What about this....

    12. Can law enforcement ask a CCW license holder to produce his weapon and then seize it during the length of the contact?

    Law enforcement may develop policies and procedures for traffic stops and field investigations, which incorporate dealing with the concealed carry issue. Law enforcement has a right to keep the contact as safe as possible so long as they do not violate a subject’s constitutional rights. There is a difference between identifying the weapon and taking steps to neutralize it during the contact (largely permissible)and using the fact that a person is a CCW license holder as an automatic justification for a frisk (largely impermissible). .
    I see where it says "As they do not violate a subject's constitutional rights"... but

    taking steps to neutralize it during the contact (largely permissible)....????????

    Outdoorsman1
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman1 View Post
    What about this....



    I see where it says "As they do not violate a subject's constitutional rights"... but

    taking steps to neutralize it during the contact (largely permissible)....????????

    Outdoorsman1
    Realize though, that it is referring to LEGAL contact. Like, a lawful stop meaning you either did something wrong or they have RAS, or you were pulled over speeding, etc. If you are merely walking around pick n save, they technically can't just disarm you because you were OC'ing. They need RAS.

    That said, if that happened to me, I'd just let the officer do it, as that is not the time or place to discuss the letter of the law. And I'll be honest, even if the officer did do that, but was otherwise courteous and friendly and didn't give me any other grief, I really wouldn't make a case out of it. But that's me.
    Last edited by bmwguy11; 08-19-2011 at 10:37 AM.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    We should all write Assistant Attorney General Dave Perlman and thank him for opening Law Enforcement Agencies up to lawsuits by giving them an inadequate definition of 'concealed' in paragraph 20. Not that he or the DOJ would be liable because they included a disclaimer.

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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwguy11 View Post
    Realize though, that it is referring to LEGAL contact. Like, a lawful stop meaning you either did something wrong or they have RAS, or you were pulled over speeding, etc. If you are merely walking around pick n save, they technically can't just disarm you because you were OC'ing. They need RAS.

    That said, if that happened to me, I'd just let the officer do it, as that is not the time or place to discuss the letter of the law. And I'll be honest, even if the officer did do that, but was otherwise courteous and friendly and didn't give me any other grief, I really wouldn't make a case out of it. But that's me.
    or you were pulled over speeding,
    So basically, if I am pulled over for speeding, busted tail light, brake lights not working, expired plates, etc, etc, the LEO can legally disarm me..??? I suppose it would depend on the circumstances at the time... If I am doing nothing wrong (other than above), am polite, and friendly, then the LEO would not see the need to disarm. As on one of my encounters with LEO, after he determined I was carrying in my vehilce legally (unloaded and cased), he allowed me to load my firearm and holster it in his presence as I was on my way into the gorcery store that allows open carry....

    but was otherwise courteous and friendly and didn't give me any other grief, I really wouldn't make a case out of it.
    As I have stated in other posts, I am also a beleiver in responding to an LEO based on how they engage me...as in above quote, but if I was doing absoulutley nothing wrong other than a mere traffic stop I would at least question the nessesity to be disarmed...

    Edited To Add: ..

    as that is not the time or place to discuss the letter of the law.
    If done correctly (as discribed above), that would be the EXACT time and place to discuss the letter of the law...

    Just Sayin...

    Outdoorsman1
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 08-19-2011 at 11:05 AM.
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    Regular Member littlewolf's Avatar
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    What part of OPEN on the HIP is confusing everybody ?
    It is concealed when you intentionally hide it. Think about it the only thing you can see from outside a vehicle is junk hanging from the mirror and your GPS on the dash or windshield, if you don't have tinted windows of course.
    I believe the new DC changes also cover this problem stating you can carry , load, unload, without being subject to any penalties unless you are in progress of committing some sort of crime.I think that is also the reason Sen. Galloway said it was OK to OC in your vehicle after July 25th when certain portions of Act 35 became effective.
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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlewolf View Post
    What part of OPEN on the HIP is confusing everybody ?
    It is concealed when you intentionally hide it. Think about it the only thing you can see from outside a vehicle is junk hanging from the mirror and your GPS on the dash or windshield, if you don't have tinted windows of course.
    I believe the new DC changes also cover this problem stating you can carry , load, unload, without being subject to any penalties unless you are in progress of committing some sort of crime.I think that is also the reason Sen. Galloway said it was OK to OC in your vehicle after July 25th when certain portions of Act 35 became effective.
    Galloway was wrong. Instead of re-hashing this, please read this whole thread. Basically, unless you have your firearm out of reach, it will have to be visible from a distance (on the dash) or you will be violating 941.23 if you don't have a permit.

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    Exclamation Once Again This Makes No Sense.

    Snip: "Under the new law, even a person without a CCW license can carry a handgun or load a handgun in his/her vehicle, so long as the weapon is not concealed, meaning that the weapon is not within reach. However firearms, other than handguns, still must be unloaded and sheathed in a vehicle, whether the person is a CCW license holder or not. 167.31(2)"

    Either the sentence above was written by a complete Moron OR it was written to purposely confuse officers and the public as to what a "concealed" weapon is. Once again, how can we "carry a handgun or load a handgun in his/her vehicle" without a CCW license if it is NOT WITHIN REACH?!?!

    There are other incorrect "answers" in this FAQ's for LEO. I haven't read through it all yet but look at question 21 about electric weapons. Question 21 states that if you do NOT have a CCW license you cannot possess an electric weapon. That is simply not true.

    Here is what it should state: Are there other persons who can legally carry an electric weapon?
    Yes. In addition to licensees and out-of-state licensees, peace officers, correctional officers and armed forces/national guard personnel while on official duty, manufacturers and sellers to authorized persons and a common carrier may also carry electric weapons. Wis. Stat. § 941.295(2)(a) to (e).

    And: Can I carry an electric weapon concealed if I do not have a CCW license?
    If you are not specifically allowed to carry an electric weapon (see above) you are only allowed to carry an electric weapon in your own dwelling or place of business or on land that you own, lease, or legally occupy. Wis. Stat. § 941.295(2g). You may also transport the weapon if it is enclosed within a carrying case. Wis. Stat. § 941.295(2r). The possession or carrying of an electric weapon in any other situations is a felony. Wis. Stat. § 941.295(1m).

    And: Can a qualified out-of-state law enforcement officer or former law enforcement officer carry an electric weapon?
    No. The statute does not provide an exception for an out-of-state law enforcement officer or former law enforcement officer. However, the exceptions for possessing on a dwelling or place of business or on land that such a person owns, leases, or legally occupies apply as does the exception for transporting (see below).

    And: A person who is not a licensee may only transport an electric weapon if it is enclosed within a carrying case. Wis. Stat. § 941.295(2r).

    Another thing of interest to those Wisconsin residents interested in obtaining an "Electric Weapon": Under Wisconsin law you CAN possess it (as mentioned above) with OR without a Wisconsin CCW but you can NOT purchase an electric weapon of any kind IN WISCONSIN unless you HAVE a CCW.

    This is from the CCW FAQ's PDF: Is it unlawful to sell or manufacture electric weapons in Wisconsin?
    A person may manufacture and sell electric weapons to authorized persons which includes a peace officer, armed forces or national guard personnel while on official duty or a person with a Wisconsin CCW license or out-of-state CCW licensee. In other words, electric weapons cannot be sold to persons in Wisconsin who are not law enforcement, armed forces on official duty or persons without a recognized out-of-state CCW license or a Wisconsin CCW license. Wis. Stat. § 941.295(2)(d). A violation of this statute is a felony. Wis. Stat. § 941.295(1m).
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    Seems pretty straight forward to me? If handgun is loaded, not cased and NOT within reach it is concealed. If it is within reach i.e. on your hip, on seat next to you etc it is fine is how this reads.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdyslin View Post
    Seems pretty straight forward to me? If handgun is loaded, not cased and NOT within reach it is concealed. If it is within reach i.e. on your hip, on seat next to you etc it is fine is how this reads.
    Huh????? Can you explain your explanation by using actual quotes in the law or case law?

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    sorry guys

    seems like i opened a can of worms and when doing so, it exploded. So is the general consensus that the DOJ posted and is distributing false facts to the public and, more disturbing, LEOs? If this is true, how do we alert LEO's and the DOJ of this?

    ETA:
    I would like to thank those supporting their opinions and interpetations with quotes. Specificly Paul, Brokensprocket, Rowdy, and Outdoorsman. Thanks again.
    Last edited by xd40 neenah; 08-19-2011 at 08:35 PM.
    Carry: XD .40 4"

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    Yeah, I'd like to see that too...
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    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    So how does one load a firearm in a vehicle and yet maintain the firearm out of reach?

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lockman View Post
    So how does one load a firearm in a vehicle and yet maintain the firearm out of reach?
    Please understand I am NOT defending the asinine law, however, to do that, you would need to keep the firearm in plain view from area around the vehicle, so, without a permit, the firearm can't be below the bottom of the window if it is within reach, if you follow the 3 prong test.

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    Regular Member Lurchiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lockman View Post
    So how does one load a firearm in a vehicle and yet maintain the firearm out of reach?
    Why...lots of smoke & mirrors; of course...
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    This is what the WSC said in Hamdan.

    IV. STATUTORY INTERPRETATION

    ¶20. To convict a person of carrying a concealed weapon in violation of Wis.Stat.§941.23, the State must prove three elements. First, the State must show that a person who is not a peace officer went armed with a dangerous weapon. State v. Dundon, 226 Wis.2d654, 661, 594 N.W.2d780 (1999) (citing State v. Asfoor, 75 Wis.2d411, 433-34, 249 N.W.2d529 (1977)). Second, the State must show that the defendant was aware of the presence of the weapon. Id. (citing Asfoor, 75 Wis.2dat 433). Third, the State must show that the weapon was concealed. Id. (citing Mularkey v. State, 201 Wis. 429, 432, 230 N.W. 76 (1930)). Over the years, every element of the statute has been vigorously litigated.

    Note: This is the most recent WSC statute interpretation of ss941.23. Note that there is no mention of out of reach or within reach.
    Last edited by Captain Nemo; 08-20-2011 at 09:29 AM.

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    Under literal interpretation if a person puts a firearm in a vehicles trunk, whether cased or uncased, and that same person occupies the vehicle that person can technically be charged with violation of ss941.23.

    1. The person can readily be determined to be a peace officer by simple records check.
    2. The weapon is definitely not visible, therfore concealed.
    3. If the person concealing the weapon occupies the vehicle or was seen to occupy the vehicle by LE, then the person was "going armed" as defined elsewehere in Hamdan.

    The eliment of proof of within or without reach is not indicated.

    This statute interpretation was made July 15, 2003. Please cite a later one that appears to contradict it if you have one.

    My opinion. I am of the opinion that a specific WSC interpretation of a specific statute takes precident over casual reference of the activity in a published opinion. Bottom line; The only way you can lawfully transport a firearm in a vehicle without a CC permit is to hang it from the rear view mirror with a string. ACT 35 butchered 167.31 and made it even worse than it was before.


    I am not a lawyer so consider this only an opinion.

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    Campaign Veteran Flipper's Avatar
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    Partial quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post

    ......

    My opinion. .... Bottom line; The only way you can lawfully transport a firearm in a vehicle without a CC permit is to hang it from the rear view mirror with a string. ACT 35 butchered 167.31 and made it even worse than it was before.


    I am not a lawyer so consider this only an opinion.
    & make sure it is not hidden by the dice'es or garter.
    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
    Why do police carry guns?

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