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Thread: New member part 2

  1. #1
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    New member part 2

    I was informed by davegran that the village of Ellsworth's ordinance to discharge and carry a firearm is non enforcable. I did look up state statutes 66.0409 and sent this letter to the honorable city council members.

    Dear City council members: I don't live in the village of Ellsworth but in the township of Ellsworth. I have noticed that a city ordinance is in violation of state statutes unless it has been amended and I have not seen the amended ordinance. The ordinance is 9.02 Discharging and carrying firearms and guns. Please read Wi state statute 66.0409: Local regulation of firearms sub 1-6. The village ordinance needs to be updated because it conflicts with open carry of a hand gun. At present the current village ordinance is non enforceable per state statute 66.0409. Wisconsin Attorney General Van Hollen in April of 2009 did issue an Advisory Memo in April of 2009,regarding this issue it can be found at www.doj.state.wi.us/news/files/Final OpenCarryMemo.pdf. On the same website will be the new conceal to carry legal paper just released. Please respond to this request and I hope the honorable city council will look into this matter.

  2. #2
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Please read the actual law. I know this is picking nits but there is a difference between 'not enforceable' and 'not enactable'.

    66.0409 Local regulation of firearms. (1) In this sectiona) “Firearm” has the meaning given in s. 167.31 (1) (c).
    (b) “Political subdivision” means a city, village, town or
    county.
    (c) “Sport shooting range” means an area designed and operated
    for the practice of weapons used in hunting, skeet shooting
    and similar sport shooting.
    (2) Except as provided in subs. (3) and (4), no political subdivision
    may enact an ordinance or adopt a resolution that regulates
    the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping,
    possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permitting,
    registration or taxation of any firearm or part of a firearm, including
    ammunition and reloader components, unless the ordinance or
    resolution is the same as or similar to, and no more stringent than,
    a state statute.
    (3) (a) Nothing in this section prohibits a county from imposing
    a sales tax or use tax under subch. V of ch. 77 on any firearm
    or part of a firearm, including ammunition and reloader components,
    sold in the county.
    (b) Nothing in this section prohibits a city, village or town that
    is authorized to exercise village powers under s. 60.22 (3) from
    enacting an ordinance or adopting a resolution that restricts the
    discharge of a firearm. Any ordinance or resolution that restricts
    the discharge of a firearm does not apply and may not be enforced
    if the actor’s conduct is justified or, had it been subject to a criminal
    penalty, would have been subject to a defense described in s.
    939.45.
    (4) (a) Nothing in this section prohibits a political subdivision
    from continuing to enforce an ordinance or resolution that is in
    effect on November 18, 1995, and that regulates the sale, purchase,
    transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing,
    transportation, licensing, permitting, registration or taxation of
    any firearm or part of a firearm, including ammunition and
    reloader components, if the ordinance or resolution is the same as
    or similar to, and no more stringent than, a state statute.
    (am) Nothing in this section prohibits a political subdivision
    from continuing to enforce until November 30, 1998, an ordinance
    or resolution that is in effect on November 18, 1995, and
    that requires a waiting period of not more than 7 days for the purchase
    of a handgun.
    (b) If a political subdivision has in effect on November 17,
    1995, an ordinance or resolution that regulates the sale, purchase,
    transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation,
    licensing, permitting, registration or taxation of any firearm
    or part of a firearm, including ammunition and reloader components,
    and the ordinance or resolution is not the same as or similar
    to a state statute, the ordinance or resolution shall have no legal
    effect and the political subdivision may not enforce the ordinance
    or resolution on or after November 18, 1995.
    (c) Nothing in this section prohibits a political subdivision
    from enacting and enforcing a zoning ordinance that regulates the
    new construction of a sport shooting range or when the expansion
    of an existing sport shooting range would impact public health and
    safety.
    (5) A county ordinance that is enacted or a county resolutionthat is adopted by a county under sub. (2) or a county ordinance
    or resolution that remains in effect under sub. (4) (a) or (am)
    applies only in those towns in the county that have not enacted an
    ordinance or adopted a resolution under sub. (2) or that continue
    to enforce an ordinance or resolution under sub. (4) (a) or (am),
    except that this subsection does not apply to a sales or use tax that
    is imposed under subch. V of ch. 77.
    (6) Unless other facts and circumstances that indicate a criminal
    or malicious intent on the part of the person apply, no person
    may be in violation of, or be charged with a violation of, an ordinance
    of a political subdivision relating to disorderly conduct or
    other inappropriate behavior for loading, carrying, or going armed
    with a firearm, without regard to whether the firearm is loaded or
    is concealed or openly carried. Any ordinance in violation of this
    subsection does not apply and may not be enforced.
    History: 1995 a. 72; 1999 a. 150 s. 260; Stats. 1999 s. 66.0409; 2011 a. 35.
    This section does not prohibit municipalities from enacting and enforcing zoning
    ordinances that apply to sport shooting ranges. Town of Avon v. Oliver, 2002 WI App
    97, 253 Wis. 2d 647, 644 N.W.2d 260, 01−1851.
    66.0409(2) says they can't enact a new statutes. No penalty if they do.

    66.0409(4)(b) says they can't enforce a statute that was passed before 11/18/95.

    So.... to recap, there is no penalty in this statute. So... the towns/counties/government agencies can do whatever the hell they want and there is nothing we can do about it. They can issue the citation, make you go to court and most likely the district attorney would drop the charges or the judge would but the law can stay on the books.

    We need to get some teeth into this. Madison has already said they will pass an ordinance that stops carrying in their buildings. The implication is that they will ticket us even if they don't have the proper signage just to chill our rights.

  3. #3
    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    I was informed by davegran that the village of Ellsworth's ordinance to discharge and carry a firearm is non enforcable. I did look up state statutes 66.0409 and sent this letter to the honorable city council members.

    Dear City council members: I don't live in the village of Ellsworth but in the township of Ellsworth. I have noticed that a city ordinance is in violation of state statutes unless it has been amended and I have not seen the amended ordinance. The ordinance is 9.02 Discharging and carrying firearms and guns. Please read Wi state statute 66.0409: Local regulation of firearms sub 1-6. The village ordinance needs to be updated because it conflicts with open carry of a hand gun. At present the current village ordinance is non enforceable per state statute 66.0409. Wisconsin Attorney General Van Hollen in April of 2009 did issue an Advisory Memo in April of 2009,regarding this issue it can be found at www.doj.state.wi.us/news/files/Final OpenCarryMemo.pdf. On the same website will be the new conceal to carry legal paper just released. Please respond to this request and I hope the honorable city council will look into this matter.
    Well, you do like to jump in all the way...

    Hey no joke, this is a very good thing. A bunch of our members have done the same thing you have started, and have seen local laws (on the books) corrected.
    No judge can enforce it, but you know how some police officers work.
    So yea, stay on them with this, and you might be the next to have a local law fixed.
    Thanks for the work.

  4. #4
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Please read the actual law. I know this is picking nits but there is a difference between 'not enforceable' and 'not enactable'.



    66.0409(2) says they can't enact a new statutes. No penalty if they do.

    66.0409(4)(b) says they can't enforce a statute that was passed before 11/18/95.

    So.... to recap, there is no penalty in this statute. So... the towns/counties/government agencies can do whatever the hell they want and there is nothing we can do about it. They can issue the citation, make you go to court and most likely the district attorney would drop the charges or the judge would but the law can stay on the books.

    We need to get some teeth into this. Madison has already said they will pass an ordinance that stops carrying in their buildings. The implication is that they will ticket us even if they don't have the proper signage just to chill our rights.
    Yes, we need out legislators to put some teeth into 66.0409, just like Florida. This is what bothers me. I imagine a female who may need to carry a handgun to protect herself, but does not because her research tells here that it is illegal where she lives. Then she becomes a victimn of a violent crime and chose not to have the means to defend herself because she did not want to break the law. An unenforceable law disarmed her and made her a victimn. Keeping unenforceable ordinances on the books is lying to the public.


    I am lucky to live in a county that wiped out all firearm ordinances after 66.0409. They didn't even make replicas of any statutes like the could have. All they enforce is State Statutes when it comes to firearm violations.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 08-19-2011 at 11:41 PM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Attaboy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    .... I did look up state statutes 66.0409 and sent this letter to the honorable city council members.

    Dear City council members: I don't live in the village of Ellsworth but in the township of Ellsworth. I have noticed that a city ordinance is in violation of state statutes unless it has been amended and I have not seen the amended ordinance. The ordinance is 9.02 Discharging and carrying firearms and guns. Please read Wi state statute 66.0409: Local regulation of firearms sub 1-6. The village ordinance needs to be updated because it conflicts with open carry of a hand gun. At present the current village ordinance is non enforceable per state statute 66.0409. Wisconsin Attorney General Van Hollen in April of 2009 did issue an Advisory Memo in April of 2009,regarding this issue it can be found at www.doj.state.wi.us/news/files/Final OpenCarryMemo.pdf. On the same website will be the new conceal to carry legal paper just released. Please respond to this request and I hope the honorable city council will look into this matter.
    Nice going, Law abider! Excellent letter; very direct and straight to the point without sounding like you were wearing a tinfoil hat. Taking action like you did separates you from the average forum member who does nothing but show up for coffee and bitch about the law; GOOD FOR YOU AND GOOD FOR US!
    Dave
    45ACP-For when you care enough to send the very best-
    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

  6. #6
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    I love to jump in

    Quote Originally Posted by AaronS View Post
    Well, you do like to jump in all the way...

    Hey no joke, this is a very good thing. A bunch of our members have done the same thing you have started, and have seen local laws (on the books) corrected.
    No judge can enforce it, but you know how some police officers work.
    So yea, stay on them with this, and you might be the next to have a local law fixed.
    Thanks for the work.
    Since 1996 when I moved to Wisconsin, I bought a home for my family. I began to get involved locally as our property taxes kept rising. So I haad to jump right in with the school board etc... and openly confronted them on this issue. just talking has gotten us loosing out constitutional rights by decree and ignorance. I feel like a prisoner in a gulag! You can't even shout Hallelujah! on the street without feeling someone will call a cop on a 'crazy guy'. Everyday I see zombies walking on streets showing no emotion because they are afraid that they just might get a leo on their trail. I don't feel free and need to, in the right way, bust out of this zombie mold. For the last 10 yrs, I have been confronting madison and local authorities on issues that have deprived us of Life Liberty and Property. We all need to jump in. I expect an answer from them.

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