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Thread: Yellow Cat Training In Wisconsin

  1. #1
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Yellow Cat Training In Wisconsin

    This is the first of two posts. The second will depend on the response to this one.

    Please consider this. The WI Permit is unlikely to be honored in MN due to the training discrepancies. This is true in many other states as well. The UT Concealed Firearm Permit will do two things. 1) A UT Permit is proof of training in WI - and - 2) Give the holder reciprocity in 3/5 of the USA. And, a UT permit application mailed by September 15 will result in the UT permit arriving before November 1, 2011.

    The Yellow Cat With The M-4 (Jim) will be returning to Wisconsin to visit family and friends and conduct firearms training in SE Wisconsin. The classroom training will take place at the East Troy Airport. Since all NRA courses require the use of a range, whether or not I teach NRA Courses depends on whether or not my allies in WI find me a range to use. Students will split the costs of the range. But, we will assume that we can get a range even if we have to use an indoor range and every student pay for one lane.

    All students who wish to take the Utah Concealed Firearm Permit Course must first download the course materials. See link

    Also, students must obtain a passport photo ($9 at Walgreens) and be fingerprinted - most Law Enforcement Offices, but you may have trouble getting fingerprint cards, or, Borkhuis Investigative Services (the tenant in my property in WI).

    Link: http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/doc...0115162011.pdf

    Please note that I have raised my training prices slightly, but am still very competitive. (Some businesses "up north" are getting $125 for the UT CFP Course.)

    My availability is:

    Friday, September 2, 2011 for Utah CFP -or- NRA First Steps Pistol - or NRA Basic Pistol, but not all three on the same day.

    Saturday, September 3, 2011 - see above

    Sunday, September 4, 2011 - see above

    Monday, September 5, 2011 - see above.

    NRA Personal Protection In The Home can be taught if I can get a minimum of 5 students. Keep in mind that you must hold NRA Basic Pistol or above. This is a tactical course and I will be teaching the "double-tap" method of responding to a deadly threat.

    Course Fees For The Utah Concealed Firearm Permit are: (Please note that the "spouse" fee also applies to children over the age of 21).

    Military Veteran with the Military Order of the Purple Heart - Course Fee = $10 (Spouse = $15)
    Military Veteran with the CIB (or equiv) Course Fee = $15 (Spouse = $20)
    Military Veteran - non combat - Course fee = $20 (Spouse = $25)
    Current Law Enforcement Officer - Course Fee = $20 (Spouse = $25)
    Wisconsin Carry Paid Member AND NRA Member = $20 (Spouse = $25)
    Wisconsin Carry Paid Member = $25 (Spouse = $30 - if not also a member of WI Carry)
    Person who is a member of a 2A group not NRA or WI Carry - Course fee = $35 (non member Spouse = $40)
    Citizen who is not a member of a 2A group and has not joined WI Carrry before the class - Course Fee = $40.

    NRA Courses (Basic Pistol and First Steps - Pistol) - All Students must pay the $30 MSRP for the Textbook, tests, and related training materials.

    Vet with Purple Heart = MSRP + $5
    Vet with CIB = MSRP +$10
    Vet - non combat = MSRP + $15
    LEO, or - WI CARRY + NRA = MSRP + $15
    WI CARRY = MSRP + $20
    Person who is a member of a 2A group that is not NRA or WI CARRY = MSRP +$25
    Citizen who is not a member of any 2A Group = MSRP + $40
    Spouses or adult children over 21 add $5 to the above groupings.

    NRA Personal Protection In The Home (Must Have NRA Basic Pistol or more)

    All Students Course Fee is $135 including textbooks. *(Students pay for range time).

    If anyone wants NRA Rifle - please PM me. I will focus my training on the use of the M-16, AR-15, M-4 Platform.

    For those who do not read my signature, my Qualifications are:

    NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol
    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Rifle
    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Personal Protection
    State Of Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification Certified Concealed Firearms Permit Instructor

    For purists who will only take instruction from a WI Resident - While I may now be a UT resident, I was a resident of WI for over 45 years and still have a house in WI and pay taxes in WI. MKEGAL, a resident of Milwaukee, will be my assistant instructor on any NRA First Steps Pistol and NRA Basic Pistol course. She will be an "apprentice instructor" on any rifle or personal protection course I teach.

    Which courses I teach and on what dates will be determined on whether I get a range - and - how many students wish to sign up for which courses. The replies to this post and any PMs I receive in the next 24 - 48 hours will determine what courses I teach. I will be posting the teaching schedule on the NRA Website - and - on this forum. Please consider your neighbors. If I get a strong response and nobody shows for a course, then it is unlikely that I would return to WI to teach again.

    Carry On my Friends - Proudly Carry On.
    Last edited by jpm84092; 08-19-2011 at 07:23 PM.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by santana View Post
    And what makes you think the Wisconsin DOJ will recognize you as an approved instructor and courses, since they have yet to establish those parameters. Owning a house here and used to live here should not be a factor for anything.
    Because his primary reason for posting he offers the UT permit class, in which you can get your UT carry permit, which then can be used as proof of training for the WI permit.



    Yellowcat I wish we had known about your classes earlier. But we've already put down a non-refundable $110 (EACH!) for the UT class elsewhere.
    Last edited by bmwguy11; 08-19-2011 at 07:51 PM.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Have Gun - Will Carry's Avatar
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    Back off, newbie!

    Quote Originally Posted by santana View Post
    And what makes you think the Wisconsin DOJ will recognize you as an approved instructor and courses, since they have yet to establish those parameters? Owning a house here and used to live here should not be a factor for anything.
    Considering how new you are here, you may want to:

    A. Read what has been posted before commenting on it, AND
    B. Adjust your attitude a bit before posting such rude comments to a long-time member of this forum, AND
    C. Learn proper punctuation before slamming anyone on any internet forum. Assuming your first sentence was a question, it's customary to indicate that with what's known as a "question mark" - like this " ? "

    Your reply was totally uncalled for, and methinks you will not last long here with an attitude such as you seem to have. Just my opinion, of course...
    “There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other.” - John Adams

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    Experience? Experience means political success, which means (today) Democrat or Republican. And it is precisely these professional politicians who have become corrupt and unrepresentative of the American people.

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    Regular Member Lurchiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by santana View Post
    Owning a house here and used to live here should not be a factor for anything.
    That's exactly what I tell all the illegal aliens I come across...ironic,eh???[Note the Q-mark(s)]
    Bale da Hay

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    (Fully warily let him watch,)
    Full long let him look about him;
    For little he knows where a foe may lurk,
    And sit in the seats within.

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by santana View Post
    And what makes you think the Wisconsin DOJ will recognize you as an approved instructor and courses, since they have yet to establish those parameters. Owning a house here and used to live here should not be a factor for anything.

    Nope - I think WI will recognize me because of my NRA Instructor Credentials in accordance with the AB 35 Law as signed by the Governor. The law is quite clear that any NRA Course will qualify for WI Carry Permit - and ANY state's Concealed Firearm Permit will likewise qualify. Please re-read the FAQ on the WI DOJ website.

    You are of course correct, owning a house here does not mean Jack to the DOJ, but it might mean something to purists who want instructors to be from WI. But, despite your post, a UT permit, in accordance with the "black letter law" of WI AB 35, does qualify as training for the WI permit.

    Now, if I am going to take a bunch of flack for offering dirt cheap courses, my feelings will not be hurt, but I can always confine myself to visiting family and friends in WI and allow WI residents to pay more for training from other instructors. If WI Carry members want to attack me, I can "back off" and disappear from view in WI.

    Please tell me why you are flaming a firearms instructor who will offer the UT CFP course for as little as $10 for a Military Veteran with the Purple Heart? With the Utah CFP course costing $125 in northern WI and as cheap as $60 at Serb Hall in Milwaukee, why are you attacking me for offering a $10 course?

    OK - so here is my challenge to you Santana - take the NRA Instructor Course and get your NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol rating, fly to Salt Lake and get your UT Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor Permit - and tell me to stay in Utah because you will teach all your courses for free. I will gladly accept that.

    Jim
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

  6. #6
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by santana View Post
    And what makes you think the Wisconsin DOJ will recognize you as an approved instructor and courses, since they have yet to establish those parameters. Owning a house here and used to live here should not be a factor for anything.
    175.60(4)(a)(1)(b) A firearms safety or training course that is conducted by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors.

    175.60(4)(a)(1)(e) A firearms safety or training course that is conducted by a firearms instructor who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors or who is certified by the department.
    Jim is a NRA certified instructor offering NRA certification courses. Meets one or both of the above.

    175.60(4)(a)(3) A current or expired license, or a photocopy of a current or expired license, that the individual holds or has held that indicates that the individual is licensed or has been licensed to carry a firearm in this state or in another state or in a county or municipality of this state or of another state unless the license has been revoked for cause.
    Jim is a UT certified firearms instructor and you can apply for a UT permit after completing his course so that meets this requirement.

    As for owning a house, Jim was just stating that if people only like using WI based instructors, he is as close to one (land owner) as he can be without actually living here. If you don't care (I don't), don't worry about it.

    All those are requirements, no interpretation allowed by the DOJ.

  7. #7
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    Now, if I am going to take a bunch of flack for offering dirt cheap courses, my feelings will not be hurt, but I can always confine myself to visiting family and friends in WI and allow WI residents to pay more for training from other instructors. If WI Carry members want to attack me, I can "back off" and disappear from view in WI
    Please ignore the idiots. I'm not sure santana is a WCI member and if he is, he doesn't speak for the organization (I don't either).

    As a side note, if you can get a range, I plan on bringing my wife and she and I would take NRA Basic Pistol.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Ok, I do not speak for "The Organization" either but I sure as hell speak for myself and I would say about 90-95% of the people here and 100% of the people that actually know Jim...

    I took both the basic pistol and the Utah Permit class from Jim and with no hesitation what so ever would recomend his classes to anyone and everyone I know. I was also invited to sit in on other instructors Utah and Basic Pistol Classes so I do have something to compare to and kinda know what I am talking about. Jim is witout a doubt the most qualified instuctor that I know of (and I know a few). He has certifications and credentials that he has not even mentioned here. For ANYONE to question his authority, qualifications, and reasons for offering classes in WI. just shows the total ignorance of the person doing the questioning.

    Jim, just check out santana's join date and number of posts. This alone should be reason enough to IGNORE his comments. I would hate to see you discontinue offering your classes here based on someones ignorant comments. You do so much good and ask so little in return, you would b missed more than you know.

    The range we used when I took your classes should be available but there would be a $10.00 per perosn (non-member) fee to use the range. The only catch would be that I (as a member) would have to be there, which should not be a problem. As far as the Home Defense Tactical Course, although I am 100% confident that it would be worth every penny, as of now, $135.00 is out of my affordability range.

    Edited to add... Because of Jim's classes I can PROUDLY say that my Utah State Permit application has been received, credit card charged, and I am now just waiting for it to show up in the mail... Thanks again Jim...

    Outdoorsman1
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 08-19-2011 at 10:22 PM.
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

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    Outdoorsman1
    Member: Wisconsin Carry Inc.
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    Utah State Permit Holder.
    Arizona State Permit Holder.

  9. #9
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    I would be interested in a Utah permit. I already qualify for WI via my hunter safety cert.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

  10. #10
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    Nope - I think WI will recognize me because of my NRA Instructor Credentials in accordance with the AB 35 Law as signed by the Governor. The law is quite clear that any NRA Course will qualify for WI Carry Permit - and ANY state's Concealed Firearm Permit will likewise qualify. Please re-read the FAQ on the WI DOJ website.

    You are of course correct, owning a house here does not mean Jack to the DOJ, but it might mean something to purists who want instructors to be from WI. But, despite your post, a UT permit, in accordance with the "black letter law" of WI AB 35, does qualify as training for the WI permit.

    Now, if I am going to take a bunch of flack for offering dirt cheap courses, my feelings will not be hurt, but I can always confine myself to visiting family and friends in WI and allow WI residents to pay more for training from other instructors. If WI Carry members want to attack me, I can "back off" and disappear from view in WI.

    Please tell me why you are flaming a firearms instructor who will offer the UT CFP course for as little as $10 for a Military Veteran with the Purple Heart? With the Utah CFP course costing $125 in northern WI and as cheap as $60 at Serb Hall in Milwaukee, why are you attacking me for offering a $10 course?

    OK - so here is my challenge to you Santana - take the NRA Instructor Course and get your NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol rating, fly to Salt Lake and get your UT Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor Permit - and tell me to stay in Utah because you will teach all your courses for free. I will gladly accept that.

    Jim
    That guy isn't a Wisconsin Carry member, just an internet commando.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Have Gun - Will Carry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    Now, if I am going to take a bunch of flack for offering dirt cheap courses, my feelings will not be hurt, but I can always confine myself to visiting family and friends in WI and allow WI residents to pay more for training from other instructors. If WI Carry members want to attack me, I can "back off" and disappear from view in WI.
    Jim
    Jim, I hope you didn't misunderstand my post - I was telling the new guy (with a mere 16 posts in a month or so... ) to back off, not you! Having taken your UT CC course in East Troy, I hold your instructors' skills in high regard, and I sincerely appreciate the fact that you're willing to spend your vacation time here in WI teaching them.

    Please, continue teaching these courses to your heart's content - although I wouldn't blame you if you suddenly lost that desire, given the attitude of some a$$es around here... The way I see it, there's plenty of room in WI for instructors and courses of all different kinds, so let demand dictate who survives or founders, not individuals' egos. Thanks for your efforts, and I hope to see you again in a couple weeks!
    “There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other.” - John Adams

    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Experience? Experience means political success, which means (today) Democrat or Republican. And it is precisely these professional politicians who have become corrupt and unrepresentative of the American people.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oak1971 View Post
    That guy isn't a Wisconsin Carry member, just an internet commando.


    Come on Oak - you've been around long enough to respond directly w/o personal attacks.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by santana View Post
    And what makes you think the Wisconsin DOJ will recognize you as an approved instructor and courses, since they have yet to establish those parameters. Owning a house here and used to live here should not be a factor for anything.
    He is a NRA Instructor. The DOJ cannot say he is not approved, because the statutes say he is. What a tool.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 08-20-2011 at 12:11 AM.

  14. #14
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    He is a NRA Instructor. The DOJ cannot say he is not, because the statutes say he is. What a tool.
    Is this a growing trend here? Replying responsibly, then destroying that with a personal attack.

    Would prefer to not carry this gentle reminder further.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    If I get a Non-Resident Utah permit, Kansas, New Mexico and Florida are off limits. If I also get a Non-Resident Minnesota Permit, I can pick up Kansas and New Mexico, but not Florida.

    If I get a Non-Resident Florida Permit, I get every state I could with a Non-Resident Utah Permit plus Kansas, New Mexico and of course Florida, but not Minnesota.

    You get more states with Florida and Minnesota permits, than you do with Utah and Minnesota permits. Why would I want a Utah Permit? If there is a good reason that I am not aware of, I would like to hear it.

    ETA: Maybe I could just get Forida and Utah Permits and not bother with a Minnesota Permit.

    Seriously, there alot of people that know this stuff better than I do. I just want to make the best decision.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 08-20-2011 at 12:11 AM.

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Even though Mr. Santana has been here just a few days, he has every right to his opinion as any other member of this forum. AND - if he is a PAID member of Wisconsin Carry - even more so.

    Outdoorsman - you are one of my students, but my advanced courses do have a premium. However, because you are one of my students, if I teach PPITH, you can pay on a one year ($11.25 per month) - or two year - installment plan.

    For other members of Wi Carry, if your current financial situation keeps you from taking one of my courses, PM me to arrange a 12 or 24 month payment plan (let's see - for a Combat Vet with the Purple Heart that would be $0.50 per month for 2 years for the UT CFP Course.) I do not want ANY Wisconsin resident to go without training in getting his/her WI permit because of finances.

    Jim
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Is this a growing trend here? Replying responsibly, then destroying that with a personal attack.

    Would prefer to not carry this gentle reminder further.
    Whatever. I don't think any of my posts got deleted.

    ETA: I understand what you are saying. I guess I need to take a break from the forum. These people that don't know what they are talking about are getting on my nerves.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 08-20-2011 at 12:15 AM.

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    So, how does the PP in the home course work? Do you teach it in a classroom or a range or ? I am VERY interested in that course. However, you mentioned you have to have NRA basic pistol first. But would you be willing to forego that requirement if we have have our UT permits? (my wife and I both took the basic pistol course at fletcher arms, and we both shoot almost weekly)

  19. #19
    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    Hey Jim,

    I have three people that still need to take a class to make sure the Wisconsin permit can be had. I like the idea of the NRA basic pistol class for me, but for them I still think the best bet is to get the Utah permit (more stuff about laws). I don't know much around the East Troy so I am not sure of any ranges in the area...
    I would think we must have a member or two from around the area...

    My new permit might only have the red bar on top, but I am sure happy to have it.

    Thanks,
    Aaron

  20. #20
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    To address the question Jim asked, before this got rather off-topic...
    I would very much like to take the personal protection class. Any of the 4 days works for me.
    (But if there aren't enough people, or it makes more sense to do a larger basic class - or two basic classes [woohoo!] - it's OK... I have my eye on the instructor course coming up soon.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman1
    He has certifications and credentials that he has not even mentioned here.
    Then how would the new person know about them?

    For ANYONE to question his authority, qualifications, and reasons for offering classes in WI just shows the total ignorance of the person doing the questioning.
    Questioning is good. That's how we learn.
    Questioning rudely is, well, rude.
    Questioning without paying attention to what's in front of you is kinda dumb.
    The ignorance (or perhaps inattention?) is shown by:
    1) not reading the post, quoted in its entirety*, which clearly laid out various instructor qualifications
    2) not reading the assortment of threads discussing the new cc law & what qualifies as training
    (FYI, santana, there's a link to a PDF of the law in my sig. Training requirements are on page 8, right-hand column.)

    * [Highlight & delete is our friend.]

    Quote Originally Posted by bmwguy11
    So, how does the PP in the home course work? Do you teach it in a classroom or a range or?
    Yes. Both.
    Here's a page where you can get descriptions of the NRA classes:
    http://www.nrainstructors.org/CourseCatalog.aspx

    you mentioned you have to have NRA basic pistol first. But would you be willing to forego that requirement if we have have our UT permits? (my wife and I both took the basic pistol course at fletcher arms, and we both shoot almost weekly)
    If you took the Basic Pistol class at Fletcher's, you're good.
    If you took Bob Llanas' intro... well, having had my first lesson from him myself, & reading the "equivalent experience" part of the course description, I'd say that's at least equivalent to First Steps, but it's not one of the things listed, so it's Jim's call as to whether or not to do a "pre-course assessment".
    Last edited by MKEgal; 08-20-2011 at 10:32 PM.
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  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Lightbulb This Is What The "Important Notice" States...

    From page 8 of the FAQ for concealed carry:

    IMPORTANT NOTE: DOJ is currently in the rule-making process and is evaluating what information will be required on the certificate to substantiate proof of training. We will not have specifics until the rule-making process is complete.
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

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    Quote Originally Posted by santana View Post
    I would say go to page 8 of the DOJ faq and read the IMPORTANT NOTICE.
    You mean the notice where it says they are still determining what information has to be on the certificate as proof of training (for those that took a course instead of one of the other methods such as a UT carry permit)?

    Yea we have all read that notice. Did you notice how it says they are determining what information has to be on the certificate, and NOT what actually qualifies as training?


    Again all moot if you take his UT class and get your UT permit since that GUARANTEES your qualification of training under the new Wisconsin law.
    Last edited by bmwguy11; 08-20-2011 at 10:54 AM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    NRA Personal Protection Courses

    Many Thanks to MKEGAL for posting the link to the NRA's course description page. While technically, there is no minimum marksmanship requirement for NRA First Steps, I work with students until they can pass the NRA-Winchester Basic Practical Rocker (NRA-Winchester Booklet, Page 6, using a 9-inch paper plate, students must shoot 10 plates with 5 rounds on each plate at a distance of 15 feet with all rounds being inside a margin that is one half inch from the edge of the plate.) Instructor discretion allows for a single paper plate to be used and in reality this is an 8.5 inch grouping at 15 feet. Thus any PPITH students who cannot show me an NRA Basic Pistol (or equivalent) can qualify on the range during the pistol shooting portion of the course - and earn the NRA-Winchester Marksmanship Program Basic Practical Rocker.

    PPITH is an 8 hour course so, if I teach PPITH, there will be no other classes taught on that day. And, I will be frank. I would rather teach 20 students the NRA or UT Course without making any money, and thus make more law abiding citizens eligible to carry under AB 35 than to make $500 teaching PPITH.

    The most popular days for instruction are likely to be SAT, SUN, and MON. I would like a sampling of who wants what on what dates so I can post my courses on the NRA's website. I also need to know how many NRA Course student packets to bring and for which courses. I currently have 20 NRA Basic Pistol, 2 NRA First Steps - Pistol, and 4 NRA PPITH Course packets. If I need more, I can get an order into NRA Monday and use 2nd day air to get them on time, but I have to pre-pay for student packets so I do not want to put out a lot of money and then not have students show up. (That is a problem in UT but I do not think it will be a problem in WI.)

    Anyone considering an NRA Course, please make use of the link provided by MKEGAL and preview the course content.

    Carry on

    Jim
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

  24. #24
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by santana View Post
    I would say go to page 8 of the DOJ faq and read the IMPORTANT NOTICE.
    The FAQ/Memo has no weight. I would suggest you read the actual law, that will tell you what parts the DOJ can make rules for and what it can't. Even when it makes lists of states whose permits WI will honor, it is told how to and has no discretion. So.... Please go read 175.60(4) http://legis.wisconsin.gov/rsb/stats.html type in the number in the box in the upper left corner "Go to a specific Statute in the Infobase". Read it. Then go to 175.60(2)(b) "(b) The department may not impose conditions, limitations, or requirements that are not expressly provided for in this section on the issuance, scope, effect, or content of a license." Seems like their hands are tied except for what they are allowed to 'decide'.

    Everyone keeps thinking 175.60(4)(b)(1) is the end all:

    1. The department shall certify instructors for the purposes of par. (a) 1. c. and e. and shall maintain a list of instructors that it certifies. To be certified by the department as an instructor, a person must meet all of the following criteria:
    but they miss the little " for the purposes of par. (a) 1. c. and e." which read

    175.60(4)(a)(1)(c) A firearms safety or training course that is available to the public and is offered by a law enforcement agency or, if the course is taught by an instructor who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors or by the department, by a technical college, a college or a university, a private or public institution or organization, or a firearms training school.
    175.60(4)(a)(1)(e) A firearms safety or training course that is conducted by a firearms instructor who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors or who is certified by the department.
    So, if you read in context, the DOJ can only certify people that meet the highlights above, no one else.

    People keep missing the 'or'. Or means that if one of the criteria is met, that is all that matters.

  25. #25
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwguy11 View Post
    So, how does the PP in the home course work? Do you teach it in a classroom or a range or ? I am VERY interested in that course. However, you mentioned you have to have NRA basic pistol first. But would you be willing to forego that requirement if we have have our UT permits? (my wife and I both took the basic pistol course at fletcher arms, and we both shoot almost weekly)
    PPITH consists of extensive classroom training including participation in exercises in the classroom, bad-guy break-in classroom exercises, a review of applicable Federal and WI State Law, and to be followed by about 2 -3 hours of range work where we will practice shooting from behind cover and concealment and the "double-tap" method of stopping a deadly threat.

    If you do not have NRA First Steps - Pistol, NRA Basic Pistol or NRA-Winchester Basic Practical Rocker, (or equivalent) you will need 50 rounds for that qualification - see my last post. Depending on your marksmanship skills, you may wish to have an additional 100 - 300 rounds as well. I recommend that the pistol you bring be of "service size and caliber". It is very difficult to pass PPITH using a mouse gun (small .22, .380, etc - however, a match grade .22LR can be used)

    The biggest difficulty I will have teaching PPITH (in WI) is that it requires a legal expert in the state the course is taught in. In UT, I can do this myself because I am a UTAH BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor. In WI, I will need to have my students locate a WI Attorney (or LEO) willing to review WI Law and the new WI Concealed Carry Law. Part of that review would be to present the WI DOJ FAQ document as it is an authoritative source of legal information in WI. If I cannot find a legal expert in WI, I cannot offer PPITH in WI. I cannot and will not deviate from NRA requirements so the legal expert thing is a deal killer.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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