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Thread: Michigan State University OC

  1. #1
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Michigan State University OC

    Is open carry legal in the dorms and classrooms at MSU provided you do not live on campus? This is their ordinance:

    Ordinances

    18.00 FIREARMS OR WEAPONS

    18.01 Possession prohibited; exceptions
    18.02 Use of chemicals prohibited
    18.03 Use prohibited; exceptions
    18.04 Not applicable to police officers
    18.05 Relationship to University policy

    .01 Except as permitted by state law regulating firearms, no person shall possess any firearm or weapon anywhere upon property governed by the Board. Persons residing on property governed by the Board shall store any and all firearms and weapons with the Department of Police and Public Safety.

    .02 No person shall possess any chemical, biological, radioactive, or other dangerous substance or compound, with the intent of using the same to injure, molest, or coerce another, anywhere upon property governed by the Board.

    .03 The use of any firearm or weapon is prohibited upon property governed by the Board except those areas specifically set aside and supervised at range facilities, or as part of the regular education process, or as outlined in Ordinance 37.02 and its subsections.

    .04 This ordinance shall not apply to Police Officers and other legally established law enforcement officers.

    .05 This ordinance does not alter the terms of any University policies that regulate the use or possession of firearms.

    Enacted: September 15, 1964
    Amended: December 11, 1987
    Amended: December 10, 1994
    Amended: April 14, 1995
    Amended: April 12, 2002
    Amended: June 19, 2009
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  2. #2
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    In Michigan, Community College and Public Universities via their operating board have the power to pass ordinances -- much like any other local government (City, etc.) would. These ordinances are enforced the same was as they would be in a city. The University/College has a dedicated police force to their institution (often bearing said institution's name). These are sworn police officers that carry guns, handcuffs, often MiCOLES certified. These officers have arrest powers and can and will arrest anyone within their jurisdiction found to be violating the law (State Law of their local ordinances). People found to be in violation of the local ordinances are criminally taken (or civilly in the case of a civil infraction) to the local court and treated appropriately.

    Now comes the question of MCL 123.1102, aka "preemption". MCL 123.1101 specifically spells out Cities, Townships, and Counties. It does not list community colleges and universities. Furthermore, unlike an "Authority" (See CADL) they weren't even brought into existence by a City, Township, or County. Universities have absolutely no legal affiliation with their host City, Township, or County. Therefore it could very easily be argued (and in front of Judge Aqualina of Ingham County) that Colleges/Universities do NOT fall under preemption. Therefore, the common wisdom (until we get preemption fixed) is that University ordinances ARE ENFORCEABLE and law abiding citizens should behave appropriately in this regard.

    I hope this answers your question.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  3. #3
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    In Michigan, Community College and Public Universities via their operating board have the power to pass ordinances -- much like any other local government (City, etc.) would. These ordinances are enforced the same was as they would be in a city. The University/College has a dedicated police force to their institution (often bearing said institution's name). These are sworn police officers that carry guns, handcuffs, often MiCOLES certified. These officers have arrest powers and can and will arrest anyone within their jurisdiction found to be violating the law (State Law of their local ordinances). People found to be in violation of the local ordinances are criminally taken (or civilly in the case of a civil infraction) to the local court and treated appropriately.

    Now comes the question of MCL 123.1102, aka "preemption". MCL 123.1101 specifically spells out Cities, Townships, and Counties. It does not list community colleges and universities. Furthermore, unlike an "Authority" (See CADL) they weren't even brought into existence by a City, Township, or County. Universities have absolutely no legal affiliation with their host City, Township, or County. Therefore it could very easily be argued (and in front of Judge Aqualina of Ingham County) that Colleges/Universities do NOT fall under preemption. Therefore, the common wisdom (until we get preemption fixed) is that University ordinances ARE ENFORCEABLE and law abiding citizens should behave appropriately in this regard.

    I hope this answers your question.
    I think that he is actually wondering since they say that "Except as permitted by state law regulating firearms" that they will follow state law; OC in a dorm or classroom would be allowed. All I can say is "Good Luck with that". I guess you could ask, but don't be surprised if they give you a story that OC in dorms is not allowed, even though they say "Except as permitted by state law regulating firearms,".

    And, as theQ has stated, since they don't have to follow state law, they could choose to not follow it in this instance and there wouldn't be much you could do, their "Except as permitted by state law regulating firearms" statement notwithstanding.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  4. #4
    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    never carried inside a dorm or classroom(or inside any MSU property except the shooting range)
    but i regularly carry on and near MSU property,without issue,sometimes LEO's from various agencies drive by on they're regular duties.never been stopped and ive done it many different times,nobody(civilians) have even talked to me about it in curiosity,they're too busy partying it up on campus that they tend not to even notice.

    remember,that MSU allows firearms,but not knives,if you have a knife,they can and will hit you on the knife violation....especially if they're PO'ed that they cant bust you on the firearm violation and want to get you on something else.

    the way i read the ordinance,is if you live on MSU property you must leave your firearms with them when not using/carrying them(im assuming you can take possession of them whenever),but that as long as you dont reside on MSU property,its fine to carry in dorms and classrooms.

    remember to read the bolded statement in my sig line,i cannot stress that enough.(check with a lawyer,id suggest Steve Dulan,he is a firearms law expert and local to the area)
    Last edited by lil_freak_66; 08-22-2011 at 03:07 AM.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


  5. #5
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    I've asked. MSU police interpret the law to mean no guns unless you're a cop. How a judge and jury will interpret it -- well, go for it.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  6. #6
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lil_freak_66 View Post
    remember,that MSU allows firearms,but not knives,if you have a knife,they can and will hit you on the knife violation....especially if they're PO'ed that they cant bust you on the firearm violation and want to get you on something else.
    MSU does not allow firearms. Stop saying this! I and Venator have both called and spoke to campus police. We have emails. No guns, no knives, no maces, no swords! No weapons unless you're a cop!!!
    Last edited by TheQ; 08-22-2011 at 08:42 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  7. #7
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    MSU does not allow forearms.


    That must be difficult to carry your books and write!

  8. #8
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    The Chief is wrong and I'm still trying to get word from their attorney. The ordinance says they follow state law. The chief told me that meant that CC with a CPL is now allowed in cars driving on campus and maybe a sidewalk, but does not allow CC or OC anywhere else on campus and they will arrest you if you do carry on campus grounds, dorms, classrooms, buildings, etc....

    So carry at MSU at your own risk for now.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  9. #9
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    So carry at MSU at your own risk for now.
    Words of sanity!

    Also remember, if charged your case may end up in front of Aqualina on appeal!
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  10. #10
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    The Chief is wrong and I'm still trying to get word from their attorney. The ordinance says they follow state law. The chief told me that meant that CC with a CPL is now allowed in cars driving on campus and maybe a sidewalk, but does not allow CC or OC anywhere else on campus and they will arrest you if you do carry on campus grounds, dorms, classrooms, buildings, etc....

    So carry at MSU at your own risk for now.
    Since MCL 28.422 is the Open Carry "Permit" for those without a CPL, you might want to point that out to their attorney.

    28.422 License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions; nonresidents; basic pistol safety brochure; forging application; implementation during business hours.

    Sec. 2.

    (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section.
    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-422


    You may want to also point out that since MI does not require a CPL Holder to carry concealed, OC would be following MI State Law as well.

  11. #11
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    My understanding of it was MSU police actually endorsed the ordinance to allow people lawfully carrying firearms on campus because if someone was driving or walking across it legally carrying they would have to write them up for the violation.

    http://www.usnews.com/education/blog...pons-on-campus
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  12. #12
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    My understanding of it was MSU police actually endorsed the ordinance to allow people lawfully carrying firearms on campus because if someone was driving or walking across it legally carrying they would have to write them up for the violation.

    http://www.usnews.com/education/blog...pons-on-campus
    And it sounds like that is what the chief referred to in Venator's post. However, it appears that there is a huge discrepancy between what is written in the ordinances and the PD's interpretation of those ordinances. If you don't want to he hassled, carry concealed everywhere that the cpl law permits and you shouldn't have a problem... if you have a cpl. Who would know and it apparently is legal. But, as this website is about OC, not CC, I would caution you that any deviation from following the cpl law, especially a deviation that is as readily apparent as OC anywhere on campus, would most likely result in a very unfriendly "interaction" between you and a campus LEO.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Words of sanity!

    Also remember, if charged your case may end up in front of Aqualina on appeal!
    Oh god. We always say carry at your own risk. But with you poor bastards in Lansing having the possibility of drawing that judge for your firearm cases.... Those are guaranteed convictions, she doesn't care what the law says. You couldn't pay me to OC on MSU property.
    Last edited by scot623; 08-22-2011 at 11:28 AM.

  14. #14
    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    MSU does not allow firearms. Stop saying this! I and Venator have both called and spoke to campus police. We have emails. No guns, no knives, no maces, no swords! No weapons unless you're a cop!!!
    of course they're going to tell you that you cant carry,up until very recently i would have bet money that the majority of police agencies in the state would have told you that you WILL get busted or harassed for open carrying if you called them and asked about OC,what they are saying and what they are doing are different things,ive never had an issue and they have driven by me before on multiple occasions without issue,and there is no mistaking me for being a LEO.

    im not saying one of us is wrong and the other is right, im just trying to say that it is my opinion they are giving you falsified information in regards to how they handle open and conceal carry,as ive never had problems and the people that have carried around me while on MSU campus have never had problems.anyone that feels confident,as always should do so at they're own risk,and anyone that doesnt feel confident,should not do so,but personally i am of the belief they allow firearms but no other weapons without prior approval,both in writing and in practice.
    Last edited by lil_freak_66; 08-23-2011 at 02:16 AM.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


  15. #15
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Just received this from MSU legal counsel:

    Mr. Jeffs:
    The following is the University’s position with respect to enforcement of its firearms ordinance: Open Carry: No individual (other than a law enforcement officer) may openly carry a firearm on campus, regardless of whether that individual is licensed to carry a concealed pistol.

    Concealed Pistols: An individual who is licensed to carry a concealed pistol may do so on campus, provided that the pistol is concealed and the individual is in compliance with all provisions of the state law regulating the carrying of concealed pistols (including the provisions regarding pistol free zones).

    Kristine Zayko
    Legal Counsel


    THIS IS WHAT I responded with.

    Thank you.

    But that is not what the ordinance states. The ordinance states MSU follows state law in regards to firearms. Nowhere does it pick and choose which laws to follow. Based on the Board of Trustees Ordinance Open carry is allowed on campus. My question is what charge would be filed for someone lawfully open carrying on campus?

    MSU FIREARM Ordinance:

    .01 Except as permitted by state law regulating firearms, no person shall possess any firearm or weapon anywhere upon property governed by the Board. Persons residing on property governed by the Board shall store any and all firearms and weapons with the Department of Police and Public Safety.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    interesting...
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

  17. #17
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Updated response:

    Mr. Jeffs:
    I do not intend to engage in a debate with you about this matter. If an individual openly carries a firearm on campus, he/she will be arrested, cited for violation of the University’s firearms ordinance, and the matter will be referred to the Ingham County Prosecutor’s Office.

    Kristine Zayko

    MY RESPONSE:

    I see, arrested under the ordinance that states it follows state law? Seems like a false arrest would be indicated by this action. Good to know that the MSU attorneys are willing to take that chance.

    I suggest you discuss this further with the upper counselors before the MSU police department and the university violates their own ordinance. If they decide to revise their stance of arresting lawful gun owners please let me know.

    Thank you for your time in this regard.
    Brian Jeffs
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  18. #18
    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    "we're going to follow the law to the T". "we're going to make up our own laws as we go along!" huh?!

  19. #19
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Updated response:

    Mr. Jeffs:
    I do not intend to engage in a debate with you about this matter. If an individual openly carries a firearm on campus, he/she will be arrested, cited for violation of the University’s firearms ordinance, and the matter will be referred to the Ingham County Prosecutor’s Office.

    Kristine Zayko

    MY RESPONSE:

    I see, arrested under the ordinance that states it follows state law? Seems like a false arrest would be indicated by this action. Good to know that the MSU attorneys are willing to take that chance.

    I suggest you discuss this further with the upper counselors before the MSU police department and the university violates their own ordinance. If they decide to revise their stance of arresting lawful gun owners please let me know.

    Thank you for your time in this regard.
    Brian Jeffs
    Thanks for doing the leg work on that Venator. Will be interesting to see what they do. I mean it does say that they allow lawful carry.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  20. #20
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    Brian, did you ever get a response back from the university on this? I totally missed this thread when it was opened. Maybe it would be better to try and get some commentary from the Ingham county prosecutor.

  21. #21
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikestilly View Post
    Brian, did you ever get a response back from the university on this? I totally missed this thread when it was opened. Maybe it would be better to try and get some commentary from the Ingham county prosecutor.
    NOT A PEEP. I do know someone that does OC on campus and has walked by MSUPD without incident.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  22. #22
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    NOT A PEEP. I do know someone that does OC on campus and has walked by MSUPD without incident.
    Is it a student?
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  23. #23
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Is it a student?
    IF it is, this should not be posted...
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  24. #24
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Is it a student?
    Not a student.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
    Wheels

  25. #25
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    IF it is, this should not be posted...
    Why?
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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