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Encounter with Sheriffs Dept. on I 10 Stop

MKEgal

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in front of my computer, WI
Any officer who does not approach every person as potentially dangerous will have a short painful career.
ManInBlack said:
I'd rather if they approached every person as a citizen with rights to be respected and defended.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
As an example, realizing that drivers have shot officers, officers approach a car they've pulled over with caution, as much as possible staying in positions that the driver (or passenger) would have a harder time shooting them.
IMO, that's entirely reasonable.
In order to pull that car over, they still have to have RAS, & still can't search the car without RAS (or a warrant or permission), thereby respecting the rights of the citizen.

The problem is that they approach people as "dangerous until proven otherwise," which is the mindset of military occupation
I disagree.
I think it's reasonable to realize that, as you say, anything & anyone can be dangerous, & until an officer looks over the situation I see nothing wrong with them being more aware (not the best wording... heightened alert?). See example above.
 

eye95

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Replace "officer' with citizen. All sorts of folks get in a tizzy when this is proposed. The rub is we have no ability to defend ourselves, we must suck up the trampling and rely on the courts to gain redress after the fact. The Indiana Supreme Court is a indication of things to come.

The two situations are not analogous. The officer is much more likely than the citizen to someday be in the situation where a person with whom he interacts will be an armed criminal sometime during is lifetime. To be ready for such a moment, he needs to be wary of all interactions.

As someone else pointed out, that heightened state of readiness does not mean that he cannot be respectful of the person or of that person's rights.
 

ALOC1911

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Troy, AL
All I can say is that out here it has been my experience that advising you are armed is a good way to get a warning as opposed to a ticket. We tend to appriciate citizens who take their responsibility to protect themselves seriously.

This goes both ways. The public knowing you will not ask nor force to "hold" my weapon until the stop is over is a good way for you to be advised that I am armed. Problem is this doesn't apply to just you. It applies to everyone in your line of work so spread the word and when it becomes known no officer will ask for our weapons in the name of "officer safety" then we will all start telling you we are armed.

On a side note, I hope you realise what you just said in your post I quoted is very unethical if not illegal being it's at least unethical for you base whether or not to issue a ticket on whether or not someone told the they are armed prior to your asking or it coming back upon running their information. This has absolutely no bearing on whether they "earned" their taffic violation or not.
 

ALOC1911

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A lot of it depends on how you look up the information in the system. If you input the full name, DOB, along with DL information you will get more information than just inputing the DL number. As you know the system is very quircky as it has to be inputed just right.

It doesn't really matter what you call it NLETS or ILETS it is the same system, and there are different ways to retrive the information from it.

I run out of state DL's all the time and they have fequently told me if someone had a CCW. Again I'm not overly concerned about people with CCW's as they usally follow the laws. It is the ones that don't follow the laws I worry about.

In AL it's illegal for permit holder info (who has one) to be available, I believe, to anybody except the people in the sheriff's office. I know for a fact it's illegal for that info to be in any database available for other agencies to look up. That's one reason why some state do not have reciprocity with AL because we don't have that info available to them without them calling the sheriff's office and asking if one they've come across is still valid.
 

DocWalker

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In AL it's illegal for permit holder info (who has one) to be available, I believe, to anybody except the people in the sheriff's office. I know for a fact it's illegal for that info to be in any database available for other agencies to look up. That's one reason why some state do not have reciprocity with AL because we don't have that info available to them without them calling the sheriff's office and asking if one they've come across is still valid.

Keep telling yourself that. This is a National or Interstate database that is used by all law enforcement agencies be them local or federal. It is illegal and I have seen people fired for looking up people they had no need to look up. It is tracked much like medical records and need to know. I could look someone up but if I don't have a need to know I could and should be fired. You would be suprised what information is in the ILETS/NLETS system.
 

Brimstone Baritone

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What I'm telling you is that info never gets put into any system like that.

Turns out that isn't entirely correct.

13A-11-75 said:
...
(b) The name, address, and signature collected from an applicant or licensee under this section shall be kept confidential, shall be exempt from disclosure under Section 36-12-40, and may only be used for law enforcement purposes except when a current licensee is charged in any state with a felony involving the use of a pistol.
...

As for whether it's allowed to be put into a database, maybe so maybe not. But it is available for use for 'law enforcement purposes'. That means it is almost certainly put into somebody's database at some point, even if it is only the sheriff's. I find it hard to imagine that it wouldn't make its way into the national database, too.
 

ALOC1911

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Turns out that isn't entirely correct.

As for whether it's allowed to be put into a database, maybe so maybe not. But it is available for use for 'law enforcement purposes'. That means it is almost certainly put into somebody's database at some point, even if it is only the sheriff's. I find it hard to imagine that it wouldn't make its way into the national database, too.

Based on sources on the inside I obvioulsy cannot reveal, yes it is. At least not where I'm from anyway. You know we're behind a little bit.
 
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Brimstone Baritone

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Fair enough. I was just pointing out that the law allows (contrary to what I had always believed) the information to be used and released for 'official' purposes. Even if it wasn't allowed, it still wouldn't surprise me if it were collected. Easier to ask forgiveness than permission and all.
 

DocWalker

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Since when did the goverment care about the laws?

Really we have never heard of the goverment doing something illegal, under the table, or without letting the public know. That being said I know everyone on this board believes everything the goverment tells you.....right.
 

Potent Dagger

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Alabama
First off let me address this from the perspective of a Law Enforcement Officer.

In a vehicle stop, I have a reason for the stop, be it a traffic infraction or due to some other circumstance. I am taking my life in my own hands and do a stop at some personal risk. As an LEO I would consider it a sign of respect and cooperative attitude from a person I stopped if the person I stopped voluntarily informed me they were carrying, and handed me their CCW along with their drivers license at the outset of the stop. That kind of respect, is very likely to play a role in influencing how I perceive the person I stop, and may gain you the benefit of my exercising my officers discretion when it comes time for any citation or a search of the vehicle.

Now if I stop you and you do not inform me of the weapon you have, and I end up seeing that you are armed, you will have the very unpleasant experience of me drawing my weapon aiming it at you and ordering you out of the vehicle, disarming you, conducting a search of your vehicle while I wait for the NCIC/NLETS check to come back, and the dispatcher to call your sheriff to verify your permit, while you sit on the bumper of my car in handcuffs. Plus I assure you that you will get the ticket.

Second let me address this from the perspective of a CCW holder. I have been stopped four different times while CCWing in my personal car.

PS these experiences were after I stopped being an LEO so no badge, just a CCW permit and a smile.

1. Once by an Alabama Trooper for speeding.
2. Once by a Mobile Alabama Officer at a DWI/DUI check point.
3. Once by A Louisiana Deputy at a High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area check point.
4. Once by a Florida State Trooper for speeding.

In each case, I presented the Officer with my Drivers License and CCW permit at the onset of the stop, informed them of the location of my weapon, Ie holstered on my right hip, or in the center console.

In each instance, I was never detained for longer than it took the officer ( the AL & FL State Troopers) to run my DL and check me for warrants, I was spoken to in a courteous manner, was never asked to surrender my weapon, or to allow my vehicle to be searched. In the two speeding situations, I was not even given a written warning, and in every situation I was told to have a nice day and thanked for my cooperation.

We all recognize there are some officers, a minority, who are hostile to civilians carrying weapons, Openly or even with a CCW permit, but they are vastly outnumbered by officers who support the second amendment. But we also have to remember that how we react to officers during our encounters with them will have an impact on not only the outcome of those encounters, but may impact on how the officer reacts to the next person they stop who is OCing or CCWing.

If during these encounters, the community of officer's, rightly or wrongly, develop the perception that OCer's and CCW holders, hold them in contempt or disregard, we do this at our own peril, as state legislators are very influenced by the lobbying efforts of Law Enforcement. Showing respect and courtesy to officers during our encounters with them will earn us respect in turn, and will translate into a positive view of OCer's and CCW permit holders. As a former LEO, I can attest that officers are influenced by their peers, and while your encounter with the officer may be limited to one or two officers, many others will become aware of positive encounters with us, and ALL will become aware of negative encounters with us. Officers do talk to each other about their encounters with citizens both positive and negitive.

It is up to each of us to handle these encounters as individuals, but we should remember that often individual encounters will translate into more widely held perceptions of CCWers and OCers as a "group".

Respectful consideration and professional courtesy is our best currency, and in the relationship between OC/CCW permit holders and LEO's, that is certainly a two way street.

Just saying.
 

FedFirefighter

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Hattiesburg, MS.
First off let me address this from the perspective of a Law Enforcement Officer.

In a vehicle stop, I have a reason for the stop, be it a traffic infraction or due to some other circumstance. I am taking my life in my own hands and do a stop at some personal risk. As an LEO I would consider it a sign of respect and cooperative attitude from a person I stopped if the person I stopped voluntarily informed me they were carrying, and handed me their CCW along with their drivers license at the outset of the stop. That kind of respect, is very likely to play a role in influencing how I perceive the person I stop, and may gain you the benefit of my exercising my officers discretion when it comes time for any citation or a search of the vehicle.

Now if I stop you and you do not inform me of the weapon you have, and I end up seeing that you are armed, you will have the very unpleasant experience of me drawing my weapon aiming it at you and ordering you out of the vehicle, disarming you, conducting a search of your vehicle while I wait for the NCIC/NLETS check to come back, and the dispatcher to call your sheriff to verify your permit, while you sit on the bumper of my car in handcuffs. Plus I assure you that you will get the ticket.

I will never hand over my CPL to a LEO on a simple traffic stop if state law doesn't require, and I am always armed, because he has no reason to know or even ask if the stop was for a simple traffic violation. I don't buy the "It's for my safety and yours" line, if that's true leave yours in the car too or find another line of work if you're that affraid of another citizen. I'm all for LEO's being cautious, just as I would be, but we still have rights in this country that must be respected. They must have RAS of a crime, other than speeding, or I will not answer any prying questions or allow any search of anything. Now don't get me wrong, I will not resist, and I am in no way a threat to the officers safety, and will tell him/her that, but will make them try to get a warrent to search me or my vehicle. I have nothing illegal to hide, but they must understand also that they are grossly violating my rights by actions described above. If it were to happen against my will, (again, I will not resist physically) then I would definitely file a formal complaint on the officer and visit a lawyer with the recorded evidence of the encounter. I really do respect LEO's and the job they must do, just want them to know their limits on citizens rights. A badge is not a crown.
 

OC for ME

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You obviously were not one of those that subscribed to the 'you don't show me yours, and I won't show you mine' line of thinking.

<snip> Now if I stop you and you do not inform me of the weapon you have, and I end up seeing that you are armed, you will have the very unpleasant experience.... <snip>

So, is the mere presence of a 'gun' a immediate threat to you regardless of the totality of the facts regarding the situation?

In Alabama, does the mere presence of a 'gun' provide RAS/PC to warrant the reaction given above?

Is there a requirement to inform a LEO upon contact in Alabama? This of course is if you were/are a LEO in Alabama.

Your 'views' are not out of line with the majority of LEOs, yet your 'actions' stated above are in line with the minority of LEOs. Words have meaning, yet actions speak louder than words.
 

OC for ME

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<snip> It is up to each of us to handle these encounters as individuals, but we should remember that often individual encounters will translate into more widely held perceptions of CCWers and OCers as a "group". <snip>
How ironic.

Just as your reaction has and will translate into, unfortunately, widely held perceptions of LEOs as a group.
 

DocWalker

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First off let me address this from the perspective of a Law Enforcement Officer.


Now if I stop you and you do not inform me of the weapon you have, and I end up seeing that you are armed, you will have the very unpleasant experience of me drawing my weapon aiming it at you and ordering you out of the vehicle, disarming you, conducting a search of your vehicle while I wait for the NCIC/NLETS check to come back, and the dispatcher to call your sheriff to verify your permit, while you sit on the bumper of my car in handcuffs. Plus I assure you that you will get the ticket.

.

First let me say as a former Federal Officer and Corrections Officer I agree with the idea of cooperation. That being said I believe you are wrong in that if the state doesn't require you to inform the officer your armed say you have a CCW and you are stopped going through a DUI check point (another illegal act for another time) then I do believe you are not REQUIRED to say anything.

You and your department would be in for a big lawsuit if you did what you describe in the above paragragh in Idaho. We are a open carry state with a lot of people having their CCW. You would have no reason search and disarm and detain someone for doing something that is LEGAL but you happen to DISLIKE.

If you also think that the police are the only ones with hazardous jobs then you need to do some job research. LE doesn't even make the top 10 when it comes to haszardous jobs.

It is LE that thinks they are above the law, that a badge gives them super powers, that they are any better than any other citizen that gives the good officers a bad name. From what you say I'm glad you found another career path.
 

FTG-05

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Feb 28, 2011
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TN
First off let me address this from the perspective of a Law Enforcement Officer.

[snip]

Now if I stop you and you do not inform me of the weapon you have, and I end up seeing that you are armed, you will have the very unpleasant experience of me drawing my weapon aiming it at you and ordering you out of the vehicle, disarming you, conducting a search of your vehicle while I wait for the NCIC/NLETS check to come back, and the dispatcher to call your sheriff to verify your permit, while you sit on the bumper of my car in handcuffs. Plus I assure you that you will get the ticket.

[snip]

It is up to each of us to handle these encounters as individuals, but we should remember that often individual encounters will translate into more widely held perceptions of CCWers and OCers as a "group".

Respectful consideration and professional courtesy is our best currency, and in the relationship between OC/CCW permit holders and LEO's, that is certainly a two way street.


Just saying.

Unbelievable. You have the gall to talk about respect, but then publicly state on a public forum, that you will with aforethought and malice, treat a lawfully armed citizen like a criminal for .....what? At worst, the LAC has obeyed the law (absent the traffic stop) and there is no duty to inform in AL (but there is a duty to inform if asked - which you have made no mention of) and therefore has broken no law.

This post is an excellent example of why I refuse to inform any police officer of my firearm status unless asked or asked to step out of the vehicle.

If you're so sure of your behavior under the circumstances you've shown above, please post the name of your LEO agency. If you do, you can bet a copy of this thread will be sent to your city and/or county DA to ensure you and your fellow LEOs are scheduled for remedial training. My bet, of course, is you won't have the guts to post your agency.
 
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Fallschirjmäger

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I would and have (the one time I was stopped) and got a warning for pulling out from a stop sign "a little to fast". I gave hime my license and registration along with my CCW. He asked me if I was armed and I told him yes, he thanked me for letting him know in advance of him running my license and he was relaxed about it.

When you are stopped they can run you Plates, DL, or just name and DOB through a computer system called ILETS. It is a national database and will show all your info to include if you have a CCW. It doesn't matter what state either as I used the system when I worked at a USAF base as armed security. When a truck driver would come through the search pit to have their vehicle checked for weapons, bombs, and such another officer would run their information. We have caught a number of felons and people with warrents this way. When someone popped up with a CC license we would just ask them if they had a firearm. No big deal but if you don't tell them and they run your license (which they will) they may be upset you didn't tell them in advance. Usally if your polite and not a smart azz then they will be polite, I know not always but I play the odds.

Ummm... errr.... no.

Other states may and probably do vary, but in Georgia there is no statewide database of firearms license holders (stated in that manner because we do not have 'CCW' we have Weapons Licenses which permit either open or concealed carry of more than just pistols). Said licenses are not on a statewide database, and therefore Not available for electronic searches by any city, county, state or federal entity.

The ONLY way to see if a Georgia citizen has a valid permit is to call the number of the county probate court where it was issued.

Business hours are from 9-5, Monday through Friday, holidays excepted. Please don't call during lunch hours.

Oh, and if you don't know what county issued the permit, please be patient, there are One Hundred and Fifty-nine county probate court offices to call, it could take awhile.

p.s. Isn't ILETS the Idaho Law Enforcement Telecommunications System?
p.p.s Any electronic search for licensing also wouldn't show up any information for states where Constitutional Carry is in effect,e.g. Alaska, Arizona, Vermont or Wyoming.
 
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Fallschirjmäger

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First off let me address this from the perspective of a Law Enforcement Officer.
...
Now if I stop you and you do not inform me of the weapon you have, and I end up seeing that you are armed, you will have the very unpleasant experience of me drawing my weapon aiming it at you and ordering you out of the vehicle, disarming you, conducting a search of your vehicle while I wait for the NCIC/NLETS check to come back, and the dispatcher to call your sheriff to verify your permit, while you sit on the bumper of my car in handcuffs. Plus I assure you that you will get the ticket.. .


Once out of and separated from the vehicle and any weapons that may be within the driver's reach inside, what are the legal grounds for conducting a search for items the driver is unable to menace the officer with?


Btw, calling my county Sheriff to verify my permit is just going to get a hearty laugh from him as he has absolutely nothing to do with issuing one and has no control over it.

If you see that I have a wallet, eyeglasses, a voice recorder, a pen or pencil, or any other legally possessed item, is that also grounds for seizing said effects, or is there a 'firearms exception' to the Fourth Amendment that I'm unaware of?

As for the "you'll be getting the ticket"... I wasn't counting on getting out of one anyway, what do I care?

Pull and aim a deadly weapon at me without legal justification and I'll do my very best to make sure that you, your supervisor, your captain, your union representative, your attorney, my attorney, and I will all be having a charming little get together with you as a primary participant.
I'll also expend a more than reasonable amount of capital to make sure it's much longer and much more unpleasant than our previous meeting.
I hope there are backup plans for a career.
 
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Fallschirjmäger

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The Indiana Court of Appeals ruled conduct such as Potent Dagger's to be illegal (at least in the state of Indiana.) Now, I won't absolutely guarantee that a decision in 7th Circuit is necessarily binding in 11th Circuit, but I think I could make a pretty convincing case, especially in light of Jones vs State of Georgia being decided decided in 11th Circuit.

That would be Washington vs Indiana for those interested.
 
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