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Thread: Encounter in Greendale

  1. #1
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    Encounter in Greendale

    Ok, I am a newbe here and my flamesuit is on backorder, so take it easy on me. Anyway, I was in Greendale for their event and I parked my RV in the school parking lot. While at the flee market the GPD looked through the window of my RV and saw a empty holster hanging there. Well they met me when I got back and asked if I had a gun in there. I told them I did and he asked if it was unloaded and in a case. I said it was, but did not offer to show him. I know, I know, never talk to cops! He said that it not only had to be unloaded and cased but also out of reach. Now most of what I know about laws I get off from this site and others, but I disagreed and he said I was wrong so I said that I would have to check on it. Also we talked about OC and he said that he had no problem with it, he also said that he had no problem with CC if there is training involved. I questioned him on the fact that he thinks we should have more training for CC then OC and he stated that there should be more training for both. I stated that he previously said that he was ok with OC but to put a shirt over it, now we need more training? He got a little heated. He said that we should have training simular to what he has to go through. I mentioned that to receive my drivers license I do not have to go through the same training as he for his job, however each of our vehicles are just as deadly. I also informed him that his training for a weapon should be more intense as he is planing on having to use it in his career where as I am planing on going through life hoping to never draw mine. Also if we are in the same place when trouble breaks out I will be running out and he will be running in, therefore the training should not be required to be the same. He pretty much had to go as he was real busy, so I guess we agreed to disagree and we both went out way. With his kind of logic I think that we have some more work to do.

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    good job !!!
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO!

    Since you didn't put on your flame suit............use paragraphs.......it'll keep you from getting burned. LOL

    Looks like you did OK for your encounter. "within reach" is a component of case law that is specified in the annotations to statute 941.23. It is one of the "three prongs" when deciding whether a weapon is considered "concealed.

    1. The weapon is hidden
    2. You are aware of the weapons presence.
    3. The weapon is "within reach".

    This is just one of many messed up laws in WI and it didn't get any clearer with the passing of SB93.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 08-23-2011 at 10:52 AM.
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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    When I started reading I was freakin'. I was hopping you didn't park in a school parking lot and then OC out of the vehicle. You didn't.

    Anyhow, no flamming from me. You did good.

  5. #5
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kc.38 View Post
    Also if we are in the same place when trouble breaks out I will be running out and he will be running in, therefore the training should not be required to be the same.
    Actually you have that backwards. He most likely will not run in till the robot confirms the trouble is over.

    Welcome aboard.
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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    When I started reading I was freakin'. I was hopping you didn't park in a school parking lot and then OC out of the vehicle. You didn't.

    Anyhow, no flamming from me. You did good.
    Same here. I thought is was going to be a story of one hell of a newbie mistake.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 08-23-2011 at 01:44 PM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Welcome aboard.
    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET
    I thought this was going to be a story of one hell of a newbie mistake.
    +1 Glad we were wrong!
    And +1 on the paragraphs... please.

    Other than playing along on their fishing expedition, sounds like you did just fine.
    The officer is allowed to have his opinions about training, so long as he doesn't try to give them the force of law.

    Good job on pointing out the problems with his thinking - he's probably going to draw his gun, you hope never to except at the range.
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  8. #8
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    as a slightly different discussion...

    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet
    "within reach" is a component of case law that is specified in the annotations to statute 941.23. It is one of the "three prongs" when deciding whether a weapon is considered "concealed".

    1. The weapon is hidden
    2. You are aware of the weapons presence.
    3. The weapon is "within reach".
    But a parked RV is considered a home, right?
    And I can store my pistol however I want wherever I want in my home.
    Once the engine starts, however, it has to be U/E & (arguably) out of reach (until 01NOV).

    Wonder how "RV as home" would fare against "parked in a school zone" (or in this case, on school grounds)?
    There's another twist... even U/E it can't be on school grounds. (With very narrow exceptions, which don't seem to apply here). So did the cops just let him get away with a felony?

    Strongly suggest keeping anything firearms related out of sight in the future,
    and possibly pulling the shades when parked.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 08-23-2011 at 03:51 PM.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    Welcome aboard,

    First off congrats on a fairly good encounter where you didn't get shiny bracelets. It sounds like you were knowledgeable and stood your ground, that's good. I would strongly caution you though on answering questions that may put you in a negative situation. Even if you knew you were in the right. They are trained and do question for cause. And while he may not have had any previous to talking to you, you may say something giving him cause. I'm not opposed to talking. But when the questions turn directional and direct for cause, that's when you need to stop answering. You can simply say I don't want to answer that, or just don't and stare at him. You have no idea who your talking to and what they will do with the info. Good job though.

    If you haven't watched the Don't Talk to Cops vid yet, then I strongly encourage you to click on the New to OC thread in my Signature and scroll down to the vids and watch it. It will explain everything very clearly. If you have seen it...watch it again. It's very informative.
    Last edited by Motofixxer; 08-23-2011 at 03:24 PM.
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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    But a parked RV is considered a home, right?
    And I can store my pistol however I want wherever I want in my home.
    Since there is no actual exception in the Statute for home and place of business and furthermore the RV is not on your private property, I see little chance of this line of reasoning saving you from a conviction should you be cited.

  11. #11
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    But a parked RV is considered a home, right?
    And I can store my pistol however I want wherever I want in my home.
    Once the engine starts, however, it has to be U/E & (arguably) out of reach.

    Wonder how "RV as home" would fare against "parked in a school zone" (or in this case, on school grounds)?
    There's another twist... even U/E it can't be on school grounds. (With very narrow exceptions, which don't seem to apply here). So did the cops just let him get away with a felony?

    Strongly suggest keeping anything firearms related out of sight in the future,
    and possibly pulling the shades when parked.
    Hmmm.... I'm not sure how the law in WI treats an RV as far as that goes or the 4A goes. Since we have weaker laws protecting us from 4A violations in our cars than some states that treat it as an extension of the home I would believe it's probably treated more like a motor vehicle here, at least when it's on public property. That's all speculation of course.
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight
    Since there is no actual exception in the Statute for home and place of business and furthermore the RV is not on your private property, I see little chance of this line of reasoning saving you from a conviction should you be cited.
    There are exceptions in the law for home & business: http://legis.wisconsin.gov/RSB/STATS.HTML
    941.23(2) Any person, other than one of the following, who carries a concealed and dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor:
    [a-d discuss LEO & licensee]
    (e) An individual who carries a concealed and dangerous weapon, as defined in s. 175.60(1)(j), in his or her own dwelling or place of business or on land that he or she owns, leases, or legally occupies.
    Also see:
    175.60(2g) Carrying a concealed weapon; possession and display of license document or authorization.
    (b) Unless the licensee or out-of-state licensee is carrying a concealed weapon in a manner described under s. 941.23(2)(e), a licensee shall have with him or her his or her license document and photographic identification card...
    And I know there have been court rulings saying that the cardboard box a homeless person sleeps in is protected by 4A as a house, so wouldn't protection be at least as strong for a locked, parked RV? (As I'm presuming the OP was.)

    The main issue I see is that it was on school grounds, but yes, I know WI doesn't see vehicles as private property / extension of the home. One more thing we need to get changed.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 08-23-2011 at 04:10 PM.

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    Wow, it sounds like I may have dodged a bullet there.(so to speak) I would have handled it differently had he been aggresive in his replies. However I know that people with authority can change at the drop of a hat if they think that you are not stroking them enough. It was more of an informational contact with me doing most of the asking. He actually seemed like a nice guy, but I know that can be a very thin veneer which can disappear very quickly. He did tell me that with a RV it is almost impossible to have the weapon where it is inaccessible. He also mentioned that it is the responsibility of the carrier to research if they can carry in a location before entering. We were discussing the Southridge Mall where he believes the stores are or will be carry friendly however the mall is not, so it is possible to enter through the store with no sign and be hit for tresspassing in the mall. Go Figure!

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Wink Good Job and Welcome!

    I agree that you are correct and they (police) are incorrect about the transportation of the firearm. No where in the transport statute (167.31) does it state the firearm has to be out of reach. 167.31 simply states "unloaded and encased" for firearms. 941.23 (Concealed Weapons statute) does have three elements to it as mentioned in posts above. What you should be able to determine though is that it is impossible to NOT conceal a weapon when following 167.31 since as soon as the firearm is encased it meets the three elements of 941.23. Some on this site believe that when you are transporting your firearm it must be out of reach. Myself and many others disagree since 941.23 applies to EVERY situation, not just transporting a weapon whereas 167.31 applies to transport only and...no matter what you do you always violate 941.23 when you meet the 3 elements of the statute. So every time you put your firearm in a box, case, gun safe, etc. and are "within reach" of it you violated 941.23.

    As I've said many times before, if the police wanted to arrest people for violation of 941.23, then put a police officer on every door of every gun store and arrest everyone going in and out with a gun case or box they just bought the firearm in since everyone will have their firearms in a case (box, etc.) and within reach and of course that person will know it is there. That meets the three elements of 941.23.

    I transport my firearm in accordance with 167.31 (unloaded and encased) on the seat next to me. As others have mentioned it usually is not a great idea to talk to the police.
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    Regular Member littlewolf's Avatar
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    Did you mention to him peeping in windows is considered prowling and against the law ?
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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlewolf View Post
    Did you mention to him peeping in windows is considered prowling and against the law ?
    lol...that's funny !!
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

  17. #17
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    welcome to the boom town. glad to hear your encounter worked out well. got me all choked up.

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    Regular Member comp45acp's Avatar
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    Cased on the seat next to me until 01 Nov. when it stays in it's holster. It has worked for 2.5 years and I see no reason it won't work for a couple months longer.
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