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Thread: CGF Strategy for Carry In California...But Something's Missing

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Sons of Liberty's Avatar
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    CGF Strategy for Carry In California...But Something's Missing

    Gene of CalGuns Federation outlines his strategy...but something's missing...can you guess?

    Quote from Gene after outlining his strategy, "I'm sure there is something I've forgotten, but..."

    Read here: http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.com...for-carry.html
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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    That's unfortunate. It'd be interesting to hear what the strategy will be if the Supreme Court rules that states can restrict concealed carry but not open carry. I guess it's nice to have some vague outline over what the overall plan is.

    The argument over open carry versus concealed carry is really one of those Elvis versus the Beatles things. It's theoretically possible to like them both, but you always have to choose one over the other in the end. Maybe more CGFers lean toward the concealed side. Oaklander said that thing about open carry being ok if banjos are around. Gene lead the 2010 Pink Pistol chant of, "Marriage license, carry license". I wonder if there's a strategy to remove the restriction on CCW holders from LOCing? Maybe the open carry stuff is really top secret? I dunno, it's kind of a bummer not to see open carry mentioned at all.

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Of course there are elements of strategy missing from an outline being published on a public forum. It would not benefit us if everything that pro-gunners intended to accomplish were exposed for the opposition to derail. There is no question that certain information is not being released with that in mind.

    On the other hand, there are other things that have been recommended by Gene that may reveal what is going on behind the curtains... namely, the recommendation to refer to 'CCW' as either 'carry license' or LTC. Removing 'concealed' from the reference to California's licensing scheme is not a trivial exercize- there is a reason to break decades of learned ill-used nomenclature.
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  4. #4
    Regular Member Firemark's Avatar
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    There are 2 lines of thought I look at with regard to Open vs Concealed carry.
    Concealed- pretty much accepted and the standard in many states, most likely because it is CONCEALED and the general public, who can and do become hysterically scared at the meer sight of a weapon, prefer to not see the "evil". Requires a permit or permission from the state to carry in this manner and many believe that this makes them safer. Hoplophobia is very easy to nurture and encourage growth, our mainstream media does a great job of that.
    Open Carry- the original, legal means of carrying where seeing the weapon was historically seen as the honorable and polite thing to do so people know you are armed. Written law still on the books for many states, but not regulary practiced. But this idea has been transformed this past century into being not socially accepted. Thank you mainstream media and hollywood.

    The problem I see is that, after the 2nd ammendment was written, Government has pretty much tried to take away the right to keep and bear arms. People want that right back and so they are using the 3 boxes to change their government (Soap Box, Ballot Box, Jury Box), and change as we all know can invariably be difficult and painful and met with much resistance.

    Although not exactly the same I see a parrallel to the civil rights movement of the 50'/60's. Their are those who push for change gently, thru legal means, without ruffling to many feathers, Martin Luther King (CalGuns). Then there are those who are more in your face, provocative, feather ruffling, Black Panthers (Open Carry advocates). Its a loose association I know, because OC'rs are actually trying to obey the law, while some LE agencies try to treat them as criminals and prosecute them as such. The LE departments that realize this is a PR nightmare and they will lose that battle have turned to the political process by backing the legislature and elected officials to change the rules for them, and attack OC from the flank.

    I think the 2 types of gun rights advocacy should operate concurrently, Calguns probably realizes that OC'rs can effect a change of peoples mindset but could also rock the boat so much that it hurts their agenda on the legislative and legal and front weaken any support they might get. Many OC'rs want things to happen today, now, they want their rights back, but if they push to hard and ruffle to many feathers, the strategy can have the opposite affect. Calguns cant show their cards otherwise they lose their position so OC is kinda left in the dark and can get upset and peeved that nothing is getting done, at least that seems to be many peoples perception.

    So my take is, allow CalGuns to do their thing they are making progress, working hard, changing the landscape, they are working the slow and steady winning strategy, OC'rs keep doing your thing, be smart, be a positive role model and change the publics perception, and just have faith that their are things going on behind the curtain we cant see. We dont all have to know the grand strategy, just use smart tactics for what you do day to day. The shift in Americas mindset is working, just keep the faith.
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    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    Excellent post Firemark - it pretty much says everything I would have just written.

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    Regular Member Firemark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjones View Post
    Excellent post Firemark - it pretty much says everything I would have just written.
    Thanx, we should meet at an OC gathering, nothing big just a local get together, what part of SoCal are you?
    New to OPEN CARRY? Click here first

    "Gun owners in California in 2011 are like black people in the south in 1955. If you don't understand that then your concepts of fighting for gun rights is just tilting at windmills." Gene Hoffman.

    "Why do you need to carry a gun?" ...Because it not a Bill of Needs, its a Bill of Rights!!

  7. #7
    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firemark View Post
    Thanx, we should meet at an OC gathering, nothing big just a local get together, what part of SoCal are you?
    I don't go to any of the meets - group OC is not my cup of tea. My 'normal' stomping grounds are Santa Clarita through Southern Kern County, I live in Palmdale.

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    Thanks to all for a very good thread.

    I am a CalGuns member. I enjoy the people over there. They are not boogeymen (OK, boogeypeople).

    Yeah, their GOAL is a little different, their STRATEGY is a little different, and their TACTICS are a little different. For me, they are advancing RKBA everyday. I will take RKBA anyway I can get it. OC, LTC, and repeal of 626.9 is all good to me.

    I donate to CalGuns and educate people with their literature. A co-worker asked me about AWs yesterday. I told him that I have a flow-chart from CalGuns that explains what is legal and what is not; I will give him a copy today. I hand-out CalGuns luggage tags to gun-toting freinds.

    On my rucksack I have a CalGuns tag attached to a compartment that is padlocked. No gun inside. I am trolling for a 42 USC 1983 civil rights lawsuit. No LEO has taken the bait and I really don't expect to be questioned about it; but I have fun with it! I hope LEO-s are smart enougth to avoid that trap (don't worry, I know better). After all, LUCC-ing PC statutes and a LEO questionaire is legal.

    I am still a little peaved over how some CalGunners browbeat people on this site (BigToe is a good example; he was browbeat pretty badly).

    Politics is civilized war, and war is politics by gun barrel. Most battle plans don't survive the first salvo. No strategy is perfect. We must percevere, adapt, and overcome. We need a coupe-de-main; attack from all fronts! CalGunners are attacking from a different front.

    thanks,
    markm
    Last edited by MarkBofRAdvocate; 08-24-2011 at 03:30 PM. Reason: typo

  9. #9
    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkBofRAdvocate View Post
    I am still a little peaved over how some CalGunners browbeat people on this site (BigToe is a good example).
    What's the criteria for determining if someone is a "CalGunner" or an "OCDOer"?

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    Regular Member Firemark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjones View Post
    I don't go to any of the meets - group OC is not my cup of tea. My 'normal' stomping grounds are Santa Clarita through Southern Kern County, I live in Palmdale.
    Yea thats a bit of a commute from San Diego. Thank goodness for the internet and forums.
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    "Gun owners in California in 2011 are like black people in the south in 1955. If you don't understand that then your concepts of fighting for gun rights is just tilting at windmills." Gene Hoffman.

    "Why do you need to carry a gun?" ...Because it not a Bill of Needs, its a Bill of Rights!!

  11. #11
    Regular Member Firemark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjones View Post
    What's the criteria for determining if someone is a "CalGunner" or an "OCDOer"?
    Either a great question or its a trap

    We both want the same basic thing, our gun rights and the govenment to leave us alone. I see people who meet the criteria for both and some who are firmly entrenched in either camp.

    Every time I see or read arguments or disputes from Calguns v UOC, I keep thinking of the movie Stepbrothers with Will Farrell and John C. Reilly, how eventually somewhere down the line they will be good buddies, but have to go thru an unbelievable amount of posturing and maturing to get there.
    New to OPEN CARRY? Click here first

    "Gun owners in California in 2011 are like black people in the south in 1955. If you don't understand that then your concepts of fighting for gun rights is just tilting at windmills." Gene Hoffman.

    "Why do you need to carry a gun?" ...Because it not a Bill of Needs, its a Bill of Rights!!

  12. #12
    Regular Member wildhawker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjones View Post
    What's the criteria for determining if someone is a "CalGunner" or an "OCDOer"?
    I think it's self-determined. I consider myself a gun rights advocate, first, period. I happen to be a member of OCDO, Calguns.net, Guntards, and a handful of other message boards and online forums, as well as organizations like SAF, NRA, CRPA, CGF, and Madison Society. I think I'm an "alloftheabover".

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    Join me in making regular monthly tax-deductible donations to the Calguns Foundation and help us advance gun rights in California today!

    Unless explicitly stated otherwise, all comments are my own and not the approved position of any organization, nor should they be considered legal advice.

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    Regular Member wildhawker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigtoe416 View Post
    That's unfortunate. It'd be interesting to hear what the strategy will be if the Supreme Court rules that states can restrict concealed carry but not open carry. I guess it's nice to have some vague outline over what the overall plan is.

    The argument over open carry versus concealed carry is really one of those Elvis versus the Beatles things. It's theoretically possible to like them both, but you always have to choose one over the other in the end. Maybe more CGFers lean toward the concealed side. Oaklander said that thing about open carry being ok if banjos are around. Gene lead the 2010 Pink Pistol chant of, "Marriage license, carry license". I wonder if there's a strategy to remove the restriction on CCW holders from LOCing? Maybe the open carry stuff is really top secret? I dunno, it's kind of a bummer not to see open carry mentioned at all.
    Kevin, should that occur - and I highly doubt that you get such language from the USSC, since it would place, possibly, a ratifying majority of states against them on the issue - trust that we'll leverage everything we're handed to create the broadest, most robust 2A possible.

    I truly do not believe that you have to choose one over the other in the end. In the final analysis, some states will always have constitutional or legislative protection of the right to open carry, concealed carry, or both. The more applied 2A is normed across the states, the less risk we have of those conditions changing. If things go as I suspect they will, then Californians will be able to carry in the state's chosen manner 1) first, as under PC 12050/26150, and 2) later, under a more constitutionally-appropriate permit-less or free/cheap/fast permit system. That I've stated the possibility of a future permit-based system should not be construed as my preference; it absolutely is not.


    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    Of course there are elements of strategy missing from an outline being published on a public forum. It would not benefit us if everything that pro-gunners intended to accomplish were exposed for the opposition to derail. There is no question that certain information is not being released with that in mind.

    On the other hand, there are other things that have been recommended by Gene that may reveal what is going on behind the curtains... namely, the recommendation to refer to 'CCW' as either 'carry license' or LTC. Removing 'concealed' from the reference to California's licensing scheme is not a trivial exercize- there is a reason to break decades of learned ill-used nomenclature.
    Thank you for reading between the lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firemark View Post
    There are 2 lines of thought I look at with regard to Open vs Concealed carry.
    Concealed- pretty much accepted and the standard in many states, most likely because it is CONCEALED and the general public, who can and do become hysterically scared at the meer sight of a weapon, prefer to not see the "evil". Requires a permit or permission from the state to carry in this manner and many believe that this makes them safer. Hoplophobia is very easy to nurture and encourage growth, our mainstream media does a great job of that.
    Open Carry- the original, legal means of carrying where seeing the weapon was historically seen as the honorable and polite thing to do so people know you are armed. Written law still on the books for many states, but not regulary practiced. But this idea has been transformed this past century into being not socially accepted. Thank you mainstream media and hollywood.

    The problem I see is that, after the 2nd ammendment was written, Government has pretty much tried to take away the right to keep and bear arms. People want that right back and so they are using the 3 boxes to change their government (Soap Box, Ballot Box, Jury Box), and change as we all know can invariably be difficult and painful and met with much resistance.

    Although not exactly the same I see a parrallel to the civil rights movement of the 50'/60's. Their are those who push for change gently, thru legal means, without ruffling to many feathers, Martin Luther King (CalGuns). Then there are those who are more in your face, provocative, feather ruffling, Black Panthers (Open Carry advocates). Its a loose association I know, because OC'rs are actually trying to obey the law, while some LE agencies try to treat them as criminals and prosecute them as such. The LE departments that realize this is a PR nightmare and they will lose that battle have turned to the political process by backing the legislature and elected officials to change the rules for them, and attack OC from the flank.

    I think the 2 types of gun rights advocacy should operate concurrently, Calguns probably realizes that OC'rs can effect a change of peoples mindset but could also rock the boat so much that it hurts their agenda on the legislative and legal and front weaken any support they might get. Many OC'rs want things to happen today, now, they want their rights back, but if they push to hard and ruffle to many feathers, the strategy can have the opposite affect. Calguns cant show their cards otherwise they lose their position so OC is kinda left in the dark and can get upset and peeved that nothing is getting done, at least that seems to be many peoples perception.

    So my take is, allow CalGuns to do their thing they are making progress, working hard, changing the landscape, they are working the slow and steady winning strategy, OC'rs keep doing your thing, be smart, be a positive role model and change the publics perception, and just have faith that their are things going on behind the curtain we cant see. We dont all have to know the grand strategy, just use smart tactics for what you do day to day. The shift in Americas mindset is working, just keep the faith.
    I agree that perceptions can sometimes work against us with respect to our fellow gun rights advocates, such as some who post here; however, CGF is a bit less friendly than your message seems to imply. We work very hard to ruffle feathers; ask CA DOJ, and California's 58 counties' counsel and sheriffs, for starters.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkBofRAdvocate View Post
    Thanks to all for a very good thread.

    I am a CalGuns member. I enjoy the people over there. They are not boogeymen (OK, boogeypeople).

    Yeah, their GOAL is a little different, their STRATEGY is a little different, and their TACTICS are a little different. For me, they are advancing RKBA everyday. I will take RKBA anyway I can get it. OC, LTC, and repeal of 626.9 is all good to me.

    I donate to CalGuns and educate people with their literature. A co-worker asked me about AWs yesterday. I told him that I have a flow-chart from CalGuns that explains what is legal and what is not; I will give him a copy today. I hand-out CalGuns luggage tags to gun-toting freinds.

    On my rucksack I have a CalGuns tag attached to a compartment that is padlocked. No gun inside. I am trolling for a 42 USC 1983 civil rights lawsuit. No LEO has taken the bait and I really don't expect to be questioned about it; but I have fun with it! I hope LEO-s are smart enougth to avoid that trap (don't worry, I know better). After all, LUCC-ing PC statutes and a LEO questionaire is legal.

    I am still a little peaved over how some CalGunners browbeat people on this site (BigToe is a good example; he was browbeat pretty badly).

    Politics is civilized war, and war is politics by gun barrel. Most battle plans don't survive the first salvo. No strategy is perfect. We must percevere, adapt, and overcome. We need a coupe-de-main; attack from all fronts! CalGunners are attacking from a different front.

    thanks,
    markm
    Our goals are no different than yours. If we can, over the course of time, create the outcomes I think most of us want, we surely will.

    A judgment on tactics should not be construed as a judgment on values. This applies in both directions.

    -Brandon

    Brandon Combs
    Secretary, Calguns Foundation
    Member, CRPA Board of Directors

    Join me in making regular monthly tax-deductible donations to the Calguns Foundation and help us advance gun rights in California today!

    Unless explicitly stated otherwise, all comments are my own and not the approved position of any organization, nor should they be considered legal advice.

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    Everyone has a agenda, this is war!!!

    Everyone on here that takes the time to post, carry or own defense weapons, and physically and/or financially support the various gun groups has a agenda. This is like a mini war standing up for what you think is right and defending the USA Constitution. Just like no war can be won by just the Airforce, you need to put troops on the ground to complete the task. CalGuns is the AirForce with the big bombers (money and attorneys). They will win some of the battles and change the landscape, but will never win the war without the ground troops in the field. We are like a army of many nations. The various nations all want something out of the conflict, the generals of the troops may or may not have the same agenda and will argue about how the troops should be deployed. The bottom line is the attack must come come many different angles to win. Everything that is done to win general public support is a step in the right direction. That includes the in-your-face look at my gun portion of the offense. You may not like it, but everyone can try to fight as they wish if you are willing to face the legal risks.The" informers" who hand out brochures and information at a booth may be more effective than the shock troops. Only time will tell, it is too early in this long battle to know yet.

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    Regular Member Firemark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post


    I agree that perceptions can sometimes work against us with respect to our fellow gun rights advocates, such as some who post here; however, CGF is a bit less friendly than your message seems to imply. We work very hard to ruffle feathers; ask CA DOJ, and California's 58 counties' counsel and sheriffs, for starters.

    -Brandon
    Birds in a different coup I suppose, the ruffling not seen or heard by the world outside, point taken.
    New to OPEN CARRY? Click here first

    "Gun owners in California in 2011 are like black people in the south in 1955. If you don't understand that then your concepts of fighting for gun rights is just tilting at windmills." Gene Hoffman.

    "Why do you need to carry a gun?" ...Because it not a Bill of Needs, its a Bill of Rights!!

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