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Thread: VAC Win (hopefully) - NO Gun Ban in the 2011 Final Draft of EMS Regulations

  1. #1
    Regular Member Sesrun's Avatar
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    VAC Win (hopefully) - NO Gun Ban in the 2011 Final Draft of EMS Regulations

    The 2011 Final Draft of EMS Regulations (12VAC) was published by the OEMS in February 2011 and according to MaryBeth Mizell, Regulations & Compliance Assistant, it is at the Governor's Office waiting final approval.

    The new set of Regulations, if approved, will repeal 12VAC5-31-700(6) which states:
    6. Possession of a firearm, weapon, or explosive or incendiary device on any EMS
    vehicle is prohibited, except:
    a. A sworn law-enforcement officer authorized to carry a concealed weapon pursuant
    to § 18.2-308 of the Code of Virginia.
    b. Any rescue line gun or other rescue device powered by an explosive charge
    carried on a nontransport response vehicle.
    If approved by the Governor's Office for its final time it would then published as a Final Regulation by the Virginia Registrar. This repeal of a gun ban is a good change to see in the VAC that will hopefully pass final muster and happen many more times through out the VAC.

    As stated in the Virginia Register of Regulations volume 26, issue 10 (when published as a proposed regulation):
    "Finally, the proposed changes remove the prohibition on firearms, weapons, and explosives. This change would allow for any emergency response personnel to carry any of the aforementioned artillery."

    The VCDL sent a memorandum to the Virginia Attorney General's Regulatory Reform Task Force in 2006 which addressed this ban and many others. Yet another win for VCDL? Hopefully.

    Sources
    -------
    http://www.vdh.state.va.us/OEMS/File...Regs021511.pdf
    http://www.vcdl.org/pdf/VCDL_Memo_to_AG_on_VAC.pdf
    http://register.dls.virginia.gov/vol26/iss10/v26i10.pdf
    http://www.vdh.state.va.us/OEMS/File.../RegReview.PDF
    Last edited by Sesrun; 08-24-2011 at 11:44 AM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Angry <crosses fingers>

    How sad is it that a law has to be REPEALED to exercise a right by a PUBLIC SERVANT charged with saving lives?
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Jay's Avatar
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    However can an agency still ban their EMS personal either volunteer or paid from carrying on board??
    "Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again"

  4. #4
    Regular Member Sesrun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    However can an agency still ban their EMS personal either volunteer or paid from carrying on board??
    I would imagine that an agency responsible for paid staff could restrict the paid staff's ability to carry under 18.2-905
    Nothing in this section shall prohibit a locality from adopting workplace rules relating to terms and conditions of employment of the workforce.
    All volunteer or mixed (paid & volunteer) agencies may be able to implement firearm policies, however, they would only apply to paid staff. Given that volunteers would not be considered employed by the agency (regardless of incentives for service) the firearm policies, even if adopted by an agency, would not legally be applicable to them.

    There are currently entire counties that ban all firearms from Fire/EMS stations with the exception of law enforcement which I believe may currently be an illegal ban to think about.

    IANAL, THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVISE.
    Further research is needed to determine if volunteer incentives constitute a form of employment and if firearm policies would be valid even if enacted by a agency under OEMS.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesrun View Post
    I would imagine that an agency responsible for paid staff could restrict the paid staff's ability to carry under 18.2-905


    All volunteer or mixed (paid & volunteer) agencies may be able to implement firearm policies, however, they would only apply to paid staff. Given that volunteers would not be considered employed by the agency (regardless of incentives for service) the firearm policies, even if adopted by an agency, would not legally be applicable to them.

    There are currently entire counties that ban all firearms from Fire/EMS stations with the exception of law enforcement which I believe may currently be an illegal ban to think about.

    IANAL, THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVISE.
    Further research is needed to determine if volunteer incentives constitute a form of employment and if firearm policies would be valid even if enacted by a agency under OEMS.
    It will be very interesting to see how this plays out. I volly and would love to CC when I am pulling my shift.
    Last edited by Jay; 08-25-2011 at 11:54 AM.
    "Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again"

  6. #6
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Artillery? Well, OK. Sarcasm anyone?

    Vollies can be prohibited from lots of things. Vollies still have to follow rules that are put in place by their Vollie supervisors, Vollie agency and Medical Director. Violation of such rules can result in administrative penalty, suspension or removal.

    FWIW PVC has an email from Mike Berg at OEMS that says the firearms regulation is NOT being enforced, i.e. administratively removed even though it still exists in published form.

    I also read that the Guv stated he wasn't signing any new regulations for the indefinite future unless they were life threat issues. So don't look for the regs to be 'officially' changed any time soon.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  7. #7
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    From a VCDL alert in June 2006:



    *************************************************
    > 7. Weapons ban in EMS vehicles invalid and not
    > being enforced
    > *************************************************
    >
    > For those who have been on this list for a while,
    > you might recall
    > our efforts to get a repeal on a regulation that
    > prohibited EMS
    > personnel with CHPs from carrying on ambulances. On
    > January 17th,
    > 2003 I sent out an update stating that we had won.
    >
    > We did, but one part of the law was inadvertently
    > left on the books.
    > A few of our members found this recently and one
    > contacted the Office
    > of Emergency Medical Services (OEMS) about the
    > problem.
    >
    > The member was told that the OEMS was aware of the
    > problem and the
    > regulation was NOT being enforced.
    >
    > That's good but they need to get the regulation
    > completely off the
    > books anyhow!
    >
    > Here is the email from OEMS to our member:
    >
    > From: Michael Berg
    > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 3:59 PM
    > To: xxx
    > Cc: Gary Brown
    > Subject: Weapons and EMS
    >
    > Dear Mr. xxx,
    >
    > As the Manager for the Regulation and Compliance
    > Division for the
    > Office of Emergency Medical Services, Mr. Brown has
    > asked that I
    > reply to your inquiry. Your question concerns the
    > ability for EMS
    > providers to be able to carry weapons during the
    > course of their
    > duties, especially while on an ambulance or
    > responding to a request
    > for assistance.
    >
    > When the current version of the EMS Regulations were
    > being
    > promulgated (January 15, 2003), there was indeed a
    > proposed
    > regulation disallowing the carrying of weapons by
    > EMS personnel on an
    > ambulance. There was a mounted campaign against such
    > a proposal and
    > indeed the proposed regulation was withdrawn.
    > Unfortunately, in
    > another section of the regulations, specifically, 12
    > VAC 5-31- 700
    > EMS Safety (6) in part states, "Possession of a
    > firearm, weapon, or
    > explosive or incendiary device on any EMS vehicle is
    > prohibited,
    > exceptŠ" This was to have been removed during the
    > revision process
    > and simply was an oversight. We have
    > administratively directed our
    > field staff to not enforce this specific provision
    > of the regulations.
    >
    > I hope this answers your questions and addresses
    > your concerns.
    > Please feel free to call on me should we be of any
    > additional
    > assistance.
    >
    > Michael D. Berg
    > Manager, Regulation and Compliance
    > Virginia Office of EMS
    > 109 Governor Street, Suite UB-55
    > Richmond, Virginia 23219
    > (804)864-7615 (Office)
    > (804)864-7580 (Fax)
    > (800)523-6019 (Virginia only)
    > Michael.Berg@vdh.virginia.gov
    >
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  8. #8
    Centurion
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    Nice to have the fix

    Nice to have a fix, even if not being enforced. The brave men and women of the EMS deserve to be able to protect themselves.

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