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Thread: You may not forcibly resist an arrest you believe to be unlawful....

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    You may not forcibly resist an arrest you believe to be unlawful....

    There is case law which abrogates Common Law Self Defense in the absence of unnecessary force.
    939.48 Self−defense and defense of others.
    The right to resist unlawful arrest is not part of the statutory right to self−defense.
    It is a common law privilege that is abrogated. State v. Hobson, 218 Wis. 2d 350, 577
    N.W.2d 825 (1998), 96−0914
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 08-26-2011 at 12:01 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    In a POLICE STATE which this is...you may not forcibly resist an unlawful arrest.. because The Supreme Kangaroo court says so.... of course you have no rights in the new AmeriKa.

    Anyone not understand ? you can't defend yourself from UNKNOWN invaders serving a no knock warrant of your home at 3:28 am as they are busting your door in while you sleep & killing your dog in front of your child....

    Anyone think you have ACTUAL freedoms in this country ?
    Last edited by GLOCK21GB; 08-24-2011 at 11:56 AM.
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    Regular Member 1FASTC4's Avatar
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    Judged by 12 or carried by 6.

    As for the no knock scenario.. what a nightmare. You'd have to make a quick decision as to whether they are really cops or home invaders. One could argue that if you stay out of trouble with the law you won't be served a no knock warrant but then there's the occasion where one is served at the wrong house. I strongly feel no knock warrants are a really bad idea. I can't imagine most sane cops would enjoy it.... just those goose stepping power junkies would.

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1FASTC4 View Post
    Judged by 12 or carried by 6.

    As for the no knock scenario.. what a nightmare. You'd have to make a quick decision as to whether they are really cops or home invaders. One could argue that if you stay out of trouble with the law you won't be served a no knock warrant but then there's the occasion where one is served at the wrong house. I strongly feel no knock warrants are a really bad idea. I can't imagine most sane cops would enjoy it.... just those goose stepping power junkies would.
    That is a relief because it is inpossiable and could never happen that the cops get the wrong address or a judge gives a warrent on false information.

    Wasn't it just last year that someone found a way to place 911 calls from one address while in another state. They made it sound like someone was being slaughtered. When the police arrived the house was dark as the family slept inside. The police thinking someone or a group was being murdered stormed the house since they had a 911 call from this residence and it gave them probable cause only to find a sleeping family.

    Good thing nothing like this could happen.......again and again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    Contrary to fantasies stated here, case law says you will loose in court.
    This must be the case you speak of...
    http://www.wicourts.gov/html/sc/96/96-0914.htm
    It appears that the only argument brought on appeal was this: "The question certified to this court is whether Wisconsin recognizes a common law right to forcibly resist an unlawful arrest."

    There is case law from the SCOTUS which applies to Wisconsin which could have been used as a basis for argument in this case. Did her appeals attorney screw up??

    Here's a good place to begin researching cases related to the OP's topic. This is just a START.
    http://www.dailypaul.com/108738/citi...e-if-necessary

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    There is case law from the SCOTUS which applies to Wisconsin which could have been used as a basis for argument in this case. Did her appeals attorney screw up??

    Here's a good place to begin researching cases related to the OP's topic. This is just a START.
    No screw-up on the case of the defense. The woman actually got off on the most serious charges.
    If you read the court case I referenced and you linked to you will find that the SCOTUS case law was ruled to not apply or to be non-binding.
    Courts and legislatures have terminated the right to forcibly resist unlawful arrest because legal and societal circumstances have changed dramatically since the inception of that right. In the early development of the common law, physical resistance used to be an effective response to the problem of unlawful arrest. There were few if any means of effective redress for unlawful arrest. None of these reasons remains valid today.

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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    State v. Hobson is a case involving resistance to an arrest that was peaceful, but ultimately found to have no probable cause (therefore it was not a legal arrest.) If police attempt an illegal arrest, but are not unreasonably forceful, the court has ruled one may not resist. Hobson decided she would hit the police officer when he told her she was under arrest. There is no ruling that says one loses the claim of self-defense against an unreasonably forceful illegal arrest.
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    Regular Member 230therapy's Avatar
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    Fortunately, here in Virginia, the state courts have ruled we may use lethal force against police acting beyond their authority. This was reaffirmed in a 2008 decision (you can find the ruling in the Virginia forum on this site).
    Does anyone here actually believe that the Founders were sitting around in John Adams' tavern UNARMED because they believed a bar should be a gun free zone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    No screw-up on the case of the defense. The woman actually got off on the most serious charges.
    If you read the court case I referenced and you linked to you will find that the SCOTUS case law was ruled to not apply or to be non-binding.
    I didn't ask if her defense was mishandled, but that her appeal may have been. In many states, an argument not brought on appeal(in the appeal brief) cannot be entertained by the appeals court.

    I'm certainly no expert on Wi law, but a state court can't rule that a SCOTUS decision is non-binding to the state court. It seems to me that an appeal to a fed court may have been the next step. Perhaps that expense was too much for the appellant. Perhaps by not using the SCOTUS case arguments initially, they were not preserved for further appeal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    State v. Hobson is a case involving resistance to an arrest that was peaceful, but ultimately found to have no probable cause (therefore it was not a legal arrest.) If police attempt an illegal arrest, but are not unreasonably forceful, the court has ruled one may not resist. Hobson decided she would hit the police officer when he told her she was under arrest. There is no ruling that says one loses the claim of self-defense against an unreasonably forceful illegal arrest.
    This is a VERY important distinction.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    I didn't ask if her defense was mishandled, but that her appeal may have been. In many states, an argument not brought on appeal(in the appeal brief) cannot be entertained by the appeals court.

    I'm certainly no expert on Wi law, but a state court can't rule that a SCOTUS decision is non-binding to the state court. It seems to me that an appeal to a fed court may have been the next step. Perhaps that expense was too much for the appellant. Perhaps by not using the SCOTUS case arguments initially, they were not preserved for further appeal.
    Read the entire document you linked to....

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    The only helpful counter to no-knock mess-ups I can think of is to have your entryways reinforced enough to give you time to figure out who is trying to break down your door. Steel doorframe reinforcements, door bars, etc might help with that some. An interior entry cage would also add time to identify an intruder.

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    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    Contrary to fantasies stated here, case law says you will loose in court.
    Yep, I know what you are talking about.
    You can "try" to say whay you want at the time, but only a judge will make the dission as to your guilt.
    NEVER NEVER try to "fight" a cop on the spot. Your voice is not going to be that big.
    Your voice of the real law could be spoken to help make the cops "understand" that you do have some rights, but...
    In MY city, you might not ever make it home again...
    I would wait to start talking...

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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    Any info you find should be researched and exploited in many ways. If one attempts to walk into a courtroom citing some cases he found online...he is the fool. But one who does his research and begins to educate himself...he is a wise man. But just because there is a statute prohibiting an act...does not mean the act is unlawful...hint there is a difference between illegal and unlawful. One has to make his own choices when presented with the situation. That man also must live with the consequences of those choices...so choose carefully.
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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amaixner View Post
    An interior entry cage would also add time to identify an intruder.
    If you are gonna go that far you might as well start with a moat of fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Motofixxer View Post
    That man also must live with the consequences of those choices...so choose carefully.
    If you are still alive after a no-knock raid you are already ahead of the curve. Consequences be damned at that point!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 230therapy View Post
    Fortunately, here in Virginia, the state courts have ruled we may use lethal force against police acting beyond their authority.
    This sounds overly broad. You're saying a citizen can shoot a cop who demands an identity document during a foot encounter when there is no RAS or no ordinance compelling compliance.

    Cite, please. Telling where to look is not a cite.

    From the forum rules:

    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

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    An unlawful arrest is the really the same as kidnapping as far as I know. You are taking a person without their consent, without the legal grounds to take them. One must always ask themselves what would the court say if a person was kidnapped against their will by a private citizen. That private citizen will likely be charged with kidnapping. However, I am not aware of any officer in WI charged with kidnapping for an unlawful arrest.

    If police officers were held liable for every wrongful arrest they made, then there would be alot less of the "just arrest em, book em, and let the DA figure out later if I was right or not".

    There are many problems in America. This is one of them.

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithman View Post
    An unlawful arrest is the really the same as kidnapping as far as I know. You are taking a person without their consent, without the legal grounds to take them. One must always ask themselves what would the court say if a person was kidnapped against their will by a private citizen. That private citizen will likely be charged with kidnapping. However, I am not aware of any officer in WI charged with kidnapping for an unlawful arrest.

    If police officers were held liable for every wrongful arrest they made, then there would be alot less of the "just arrest em, book em, and let the DA figure out later if I was right or not".

    There are many problems in America. This is one of them.
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    If the common law has been abrogated by the Wisconsin legislature, then that's that. In Virginia, where the common law is the basis of the law, defense against a false arrest is appropriate, and one may lawfully use such force as is reasonably necessary to repel the attack. Furthermore, the castle doctrine (which has nothing to do with liability, by the way) is part of the common law, and it says that "no-knock warrants" are illegal - precisely because of the problem that the homeowner who may legitimately defend his home to the same extent that the king may defend his, may well kill a sheriff or two who busts in unannounced. That's why it's illegal under common law for law enforcement to come in without knocking first, announcing themselves and their mission, and giving the occupants time to answer the door.

    This used to be a civilized country.
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    Regular Member RR_Broccoli's Avatar
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    What is the point of opening up this discussion? IK, I like you normally, but you sure seem to be spending a lot more time shooting your mouth off for no reason. Your tone and attitude have taken a bad turn recently.

    Here's the exact same thread opening over on AR15.com, posted within 30 seconds of this one.
    http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_21/46...awful____.html

    CLEARLY with a duplicate post, you cannot possibly be responding to "fantasies stated here." And if they were, what of it? Who are you to browbeat someone else on the subject?

    Go find a forum suitable for bashing gun owners if that's what you want to do. Here, and over on Ar15.com people expect constructive, polite, and informed discussions designed to aid one another.
    Last edited by RR_Broccoli; 08-25-2011 at 02:51 PM.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronS View Post
    Yep, I know what you are talking about.
    You can "try" to say whay you want at the time, but only a judge will make the dission as to your guilt.
    NEVER NEVER try to "fight" a cop on the spot. Your voice is not going to be that big.
    Your voice of the real law could be spoken to help make the cops "understand" that you do have some rights, but...
    In MY city, you might not ever make it home again...
    I would wait to start talking...
    A few years back my wife and myself were pulled over by a NC State Trooper. As he approached the car I informed him I had a gun. He gave me a seat belt ticket even though I was wearing my seat belt. A couple years later he was arrested and fired for raping women he was pulling over. Had I not had the gun my wife might have been a victim, though he usually targeted Hispanics. I don't care what court ruling says, if a police officer is committing a crime he is fair game for force.

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    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    A few years back my wife and myself were pulled over by a NC State Trooper. As he approached the car I informed him I had a gun. He gave me a seat belt ticket even though I was wearing my seat belt. A couple years later he was arrested and fired for raping women he was pulling over. Had I not had the gun my wife might have been a victim, though he usually targeted Hispanics. I don't care what court ruling says, if a police officer is committing a crime he is fair game for force.
    I just hope that your wife has a camera rolling if you did have to make a stand against a cop. I'm not sure any less would keep you out of prison (for life).

    I guess I just fear Milwaukee cops a little... Ok, a lot...

    Cops raping women, now that does put a depressing twist on it though. I just hate the thought of that much prison time, but I also would have to make a stand.

    A few years back, a man went to a party in Milwaukee. Turns out the other guests were all cops. He was accused of stealing a badge from one of them. The off duty cops decided to punish the man on the spot. He was raped in the street with a broom handle... Milwaukee cops...

    What would "we" do if "we" saw this? It sucks when the only "choice" you have can screw your life up so bad.

    So, I should have said "never make a stand against a cop, unless you are prepared for the recourse that will follow". I guess it is true any time a gun might be used in self defense.

    I stand corrected.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RR_Broccoli View Post
    CLEARLY with a duplicate post, you cannot possibly be responding to "fantasies stated here." And if they were, what of it? Who are you to browbeat someone else on the subject?...
    I pointed out case law on the subject and what the WI Supreme Court had to say about it. They abrogated Common Law Self Defense in the absence of excessive force. Not a single poster here or there mentioned that they were aware of the Case or the Case Law regarding it. That illustrates that the cites ARE pretty informative..
    I did no brow beating and made no personal attacks and in no way "bashed gun owners". For the most part the discussion has been polite on both forums. Since my OP struck a nerve, I will edit them.
    Quote Originally Posted by RR_Broccoli View Post
    .. IK, I like you normally, but you sure seem to be spending a lot more time shooting your mouth off for no reason. Your tone and attitude have taken a bad turn recently....
    Feel free to PM me if there are other examples you wish to discuss. Seriously... if you believe I am being a jerk I am willing to discuss it..
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 08-26-2011 at 12:17 PM.

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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronS View Post
    I just hope that your wife has a camera rolling if you did have to make a stand against a cop. I'm not sure any less would keep you out of prison (for life).

    I guess I just fear Milwaukee cops a little... Ok, a lot...

    Cops raping women, now that does put a depressing twist on it though. I just hate the thought of that much prison time, but I also would have to make a stand.

    A few years back, a man went to a party in Milwaukee. Turns out the other guests were all cops. He was accused of stealing a badge from one of them. The off duty cops decided to punish the man on the spot. He was raped in the street with a broom handle... Milwaukee cops...
    What would "we" do if "we" saw this? It sucks when the only "choice" you have can screw your life up so bad.

    So, I should have said "never make a stand against a cop, unless you are prepared for the recourse that will follow". I guess it is true any time a gun might be used in self defense.

    I stand corrected.
    I remember this being on the news.... The LEO also beat him to a point where freinds and family could not recognize his face.... I remeber seeing the pic's on the news and online.... His face was swelled up real bad.... looked like a black and blue alien or something similar....

    Real scary that this can happen to anyone at anytime... when they least expect it....

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    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 08-26-2011 at 03:08 PM.
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