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Thread: Training questions

  1. #1
    Regular Member TheLittleMan's Avatar
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    Training questions

    Something that has been on my mind and often get brought up by anti-gun advocates and by CC advocates is that our guns are easily visible thus easy to take. Now We all know how rare this situation is but the fact is It CAN happen and in the past has happened at least once.

    Now my questions are:

    Has anyone taken any additional self defense classes or considered taking any to address this potential threat?

    Do you practice anything on your own to address it?
    Last edited by TheLittleMan; 08-24-2011 at 01:02 PM.
    "The media's the most powerful entity on earth. They have the power to make the innocent guilty and to make the guilty innocent, and that's power. Because they control the minds of the masses."

    "How can you thank a man for giving you what's already yours? How then can you thank him for giving you only part of what is yours?"
    ó Malcolm X

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Howdy Amigo!
    I remember, way back when I lived in Illinois, a police officer in Gary Indiana was eating at a local diner when some thug pulled his pistol from behind and shot him dead. So it has happened, at least once, to a professional police officer.

    To answer your question, no, I have not had any particular training for that specific issue. However, I believe most folks would agree that awareness of others in your vicinity, getting close, and especially from behind, should be something to work on. Never let anyone get close from behind. Be aware of someone walking behind you and their position and demeanor. In the few situations where I've had someone walking close behind me, I pretend to be looking around and as I turn my head from side to side, keep an eye on the person following with peripheral vision.

    Much of this will do with the holster. Not all holsters are created equal. Some have no retention to speak of, while others are very good. My most recent holster acquisition (for my Ruger P94 .40) has level 2 retention. This would indicate it is more secure than level 1 retention. The holster itself is kydex and fits the pistol snugly. In order to pull my gun, one must have a clean draw. The retention must be released and the weapon pulled in a direction dictated by the cant on this particular holster. Both of those tasks would be awkward and difficult for somebody to do from behind or even from beside me. Meanwhile, for me, it's pretty darn easy to flip the retention with my thumb and pull the pistol.

    So a good holster is a real important investment. So is awareness of others around you. If somebody gets too close, I may casually rest my forarm on my pistol. This prevents them from being able to grab the weapon. Considering where the pistol rides on my hip, it is a really natural thing for me to rest my arm across the handle and hammer of my gun. In fact, I do that quite often just because it is comfortable to do so.

    Should anyone make a play for my pistol, I'd turn immediately away from the threat. Simply turning my body away from him takes the weapon out of his reach.

    Here are a few suggestions:
    Unload your gun and holster it. Have a friend try to grab it from your holster from behind. Don't resist but stand in a natural manner. If he can pull your gun easily, you might consider a better holster with more secure retention.
    Try having your friend try for your weapon and turn in place and see how easily it moves your pistol out of his reach.
    If you can adjust the cant on your holster, tip it forward. This simple tactic makes pulling your weapon by somebody from behind more difficult.

    Situations are always going to be different, but if somebody reached for my weapon from behind, I'd spin to the left, moving the gun out of his reach along with my left elbow swinging around to strike the side of his head. There ain't no excuse for somebody to make a play for your gun, so this defensive maneuver is appropriate. As your elbow makes contact with his head, your other hand can be busy taking hold of your weapon.

    The reality is this scenario is unlikely to develop. But knowing how you can respond in advance will ensure a favorable outcome for you.

    Good luck, and keep thinking when carrying. The two go together just like a gun and ammo.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  3. #3
    Regular Member TheLittleMan's Avatar
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    Yeah I agree completely that situational awareness will keep you safe 99% of the time. The only situation I am personally worried about possibly dealing with is an armed person attempting to take my gun at gun point. This situation is a little more difficult to prepare for. I know Karate schools teach how to disarm a person with a gun and I am going to continue to train this with my girl and other family and friends.

    This is the reason I asked:

    "The media's the most powerful entity on earth. They have the power to make the innocent guilty and to make the guilty innocent, and that's power. Because they control the minds of the masses."

    "How can you thank a man for giving you what's already yours? How then can you thank him for giving you only part of what is yours?"
    ó Malcolm X

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    Regular Member Polynikes's Avatar
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    Actually, the best way to defend against a gun grab (or a grab of any sort, for that matter) is to turn and move into the attacker.

    Consider this: If someone manages to get their hand on your gun before you realize what's happening, turning your strong side away from them gives their arm extra leverage. Thatís the direction they are expecting you to move and will balance their body for that motion accordingly. Basically, they are pulling back and you are moving forward, creating more force on that gun in the holster and increasing the likelihood that it may come free.

    If someone gets a hand on your gun from behind, DO NOT pull away. Itís human impulse to do this, so what Iím going to say next may sound odd until youíve tried it or had someone try it on you, however, itís VERY effective. The first thing you do is clamp both hands over the top of your holster and press down as hard as you can. In that one motion, youíre forcing the gun down into the holster and negating the upward pull of the other person. Youíre also painfully trapping their hand in place on your gun (and possibly breaking a finger or two in the process.) For someone who was attempting a quick grab, itís very disorienting for them to suddenly be held in place.

    Now, at the same time youíre pushing down and trapping their hand you step back INTO the attackerís chest. The backward motion again negates any pull they may have on your handgun by moving in the direction of the force theyíre applying and the weight of your body striking them in chest is usually going to be enough to knock them off balance. At this point, it will take a bad guy with a will of iron to be thinking of anything but escape. Now, with the attacker off balance, and your weak hand still clamped on your holster, itís safe to spin your strong side TOWARD the bad guy and land an elbow to the head with your strong arm.

    Youíve now bought yourself enough time to slide back a few steps and clear leather if you feel that the threat hasnít ended.

    That said, if youíre confronted by a bad guy with a weapon already drawn, he has every advantage against you and youíre in a heap of trouble. Your best course of action is going to be to turn and run away at a sharp angle, creating a harder target to hit. If you reach cover, you can think about drawing, otherwise, keep running.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

  5. #5
    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    My view...

    Most of us carry openly as a deterant. Just like a when a cop car is parked in front of a 7-11, that sore is likely to not have any problems while it's sitting there. However, there are certain individuals in society who will seek this out with the simple intention of f'n up a cop while he's unprepared - interupting donut time. They will see this as a challenge. Against these individuals, training comes into play heavily, specifically situational awareness. Thankfully they are the extreme minority. And lets face it, you can't fix stupid.

    There are others who actually think things through - the one who's got the drop on you. Much like a good auto thief, if they come prepared with proper tools and, knowledge, and experience, chances are that your car already belongs to them. It's just a matter of working out the details. Often times, pulling against someone who has his own gun drawn on you is the same as the poker term 'drawing dead'. You are already beat, you just don't recognize it. But folding your hand in this circumstance can often have it's dangers. Would I prefer to be shot in the face or in the back...I don't know.

    Training for this situation is great. Rehearsing possible senerios is great, think them through. If you are going to actually practice, please double and triple check that is is completely unloaded.

    My own response to this very specific situation is also 'turn toward.' Strong hand comes around strong side with a backfist, preferably to the temple, while weak hand reaches around my body to secure the firearm, preferably while still in the holster and preferably also trapping opponents offending appendage. This places the opponent physically and mentally of balance. Strong hand then grasps opponents shoulder pulling him closer and weak hand applies a slight twist to the opponents wrist, which locks both his wrist and elbow. He goes to the ground now and I am left standing above and holding his arm locked.

  6. #6
    Regular Member TheLittleMan's Avatar
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    "That said, if youíre confronted by a bad guy with a weapon already drawn, he has every advantage against you and youíre in a heap of trouble. Your best course of action is going to be to turn and run away at a sharp angle, creating a harder target to hit. If you reach cover, you can think about drawing, otherwise, keep running."

    I personally wouldn't run, even though most criminals are terrible shots you might get hit or someone else might. I couldn't live paralyzed anyhow, I'd rather die. My First thought would be to do a 180 while simultaneously going limp and falling to your back and drawing your weapon. This at least gives you some chance to defend yourself. Also doing a 180 still standing while pushing the BG's arm out of the way then drawing while on the side of his body; of course these are both risky the latter being a little more risky for some if the attacker is big/strong.
    "The media's the most powerful entity on earth. They have the power to make the innocent guilty and to make the guilty innocent, and that's power. Because they control the minds of the masses."

    "How can you thank a man for giving you what's already yours? How then can you thank him for giving you only part of what is yours?"
    ó Malcolm X

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    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLittleMan View Post
    "That said, if youíre confronted by a bad guy with a weapon already drawn, he has every advantage against you and youíre in a heap of trouble. Your best course of action is going to be to turn and run away at a sharp angle, creating a harder target to hit. If you reach cover, you can think about drawing, otherwise, keep running."

    I personally wouldn't run, even though most criminals are terrible shots you might get hit or someone else might. I couldn't live paralyzed anyhow, I'd rather die. My First thought would be to do a 180 while simultaneously going limp and falling to your back and drawing your weapon. This at least gives you some chance to defend yourself. Also doing a 180 still standing while pushing the BG's arm out of the way then drawing while on the side of his body; of course these are both risky the latter being a little more risky for some if the attacker is big/strong.
    And this will completely change depending on the distance between you and the bad guy. If BGWG is inside of arms reach, outside of arms reach, ten feet away, fifty...

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    That is why I have considered carrying a BUG. Say somebody does manage to get your primary, you would still be able to draw a back-up and defend yourself. As soon as I turn 21 and get a CCW, I will always carry a BUG. Just an LCP or something I can slip into a pocket. That doubled with an open carried primary would make a great combination. If a store is posted, then just lock the primary in the car and you're good to go!

    But for now, I wouldn't mind OCing a small BUG in a crossdraw rig. It'll have to wait until I am home for Christmas break though, then I can start experimenting with carrying two guns.

    Then it might get in the way of my extra mags, Hmmmmmm...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by livetrapper13 View Post
    That is why I have considered carrying a BUG. Say somebody does manage to get your primary, you would still be able to draw a back-up and defend yourself. As soon as I turn 21 and get a CCW, I will always carry a BUG. Just an LCP or something I can slip into a pocket. That doubled with an open carried primary would make a great combination. If a store is posted, then just lock the primary in the car and you're good to go!

    But for now, I wouldn't mind OCing a small BUG in a crossdraw rig. It'll have to wait until I am home for Christmas break though, then I can start experimenting with carrying two guns.

    Then it might get in the way of my extra mags, Hmmmmmm...
    IMO, if a BG gets your primary, you're not going to have time for a BUG. Time yourself for draw and fire (There's some free smart phone shot timer apps. I use Shot Timer Pro). Whatever time it is, I gahrohntee it will be slower than a BG moving his trigger finger. The only time it'd help you is if you were struggling for the weapon or you managed to get to where you could defend yourself from cover. Not worth carrying a BUG for everyday use, IMO.

    If a store was posted, why wouldn't you just cover your primary instead of going to the trouble of walking all the way back to your car? As for extra mags, I agree with the adage "Anything you can't solve in six shots, you can't solve with a handgun".

    Now, on your original question, I agree with others. Training for situational awareness will save your butt 10,000 times more often than needing a BUG, 1000 times than needing your primary, and 100 times more than a 10th degree black belt on the off chance a situation even happens. A lot of us carry not necessarily primarily for the defense in and of itself, but because it reminds us to be situationally aware. That means being aware of the BG who sees your sidearm and gets way too close.

    Ask yourself every 5 seconds:
    "What's wrong with this picture?"
    "Where are my blind spots?"
    "Who is looking at me or trying to look like they're not looking at me?"
    "Who is not returning my friendly smile?"
    "Who is being way too friendly and getting way too close for no good reason?"
    Etc., etc.


    You said, "I know Karate schools teach how to disarm a person with a gun and I am going to continue to train this with my girl and other family and friends." I don't quite follow you. Do you mean you'll train your family and friends how to disarm a person with a gun or how to defend against someone trying to disarm you?

    I'm sure you've heard of the 21 foot rule. IMO, once someone is within that 21 feet, you need to rely on other/additional means than drawing your gun. So, yes, do train on other CQC techniques. If someone has the drop on you outside the 21 feet, your ****'s pretty much ****ed. From what I heard in the newscast you posted, the robber had his own gun drawn and was robbing the victim of his firearm. He lost it because the BG had the drop on him, NOT, as the story reports, "because he fumbled with his holster". He's lucky he wasn't shot while "fumbling with his holster". Without advanced defensive handgun training AND an opportune moment no primary or BUG in the world will save you if someone is intent to shoot you and they're drawn before you see them.
    Last edited by mahkagari; 08-25-2011 at 10:51 PM.

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    I have to agree that situation awareness is the biggest part of self defense. If you can detect a threat then you can take an appropriate course of action before your life is in danger, i.e. leave the store, turn onto another street, etc. I have read several of Cooper's books, and I take them to heart. His Principles of Self Defense is great on situation awareness.

    But from what I have read, because I really don't have much experience, I believe a BUG has its place. A subcompact in an ankle holster may be easier to access while sitting in your car than the the revolver on your hip. And I don't believe that draw speed is everything. Take for example that pocket holster made for the LCP, the one where the gun can be fired while in the holster. You could fire it through a coat pocket without a BG knowing that you are armed.

    Say a BG happens to take your primary. He then holds you at gunpoint and demands your watch and wallet. He has already disarmed you so he might as well take your money too. You slip your watch off and reach for your "wallet" in your coat pocket. You're scared so your hands are fumbling and you drop the watch. His eyes automatically follow the watch to the ground just for a 1/4 of a second. In that 1/4 of a second you fire through your coat pocket. One shot to the chest at point blank gives you time to dive for cover and reevaluate.

    Sure there are alot of 'what if' scenarios. They all can go both ways. But if somehow somebody manages to get past my/your situation awareness, and manages somehow to get my/your gun, I would like to have the option of a backup.

    Just my .02 cents

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLittleMan View Post
    "That said, if youíre confronted by a bad guy with a weapon already drawn, he has every advantage against you and youíre in a heap of trouble. Your best course of action is going to be to turn and run away at a sharp angle, creating a harder target to hit. If you reach cover, you can think about drawing, otherwise, keep running."

    I personally wouldn't run, even though most criminals are terrible shots you might get hit or someone else might. I couldn't live paralyzed anyhow, I'd rather die. My First thought would be to do a 180 while simultaneously going limp and falling to your back and drawing your weapon. This at least gives you some chance to defend yourself. Also doing a 180 still standing while pushing the BG's arm out of the way then drawing while on the side of his body; of course these are both risky the latter being a little more risky for some if the attacker is big/strong.
    That's both convoluted and attention-grabbing, particularly the attention of a robber who just yelled "Nobody move!" in a crowded room. Your best bet at that point is to blend in, not gyrate in a 180 and fall to the floor.

    There are far less obvious ways of getting into position to draw one's firearm.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  12. #12
    Regular Member TheLittleMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    That's both convoluted and attention-grabbing, particularly the attention of a robber who just yelled "Nobody move!" in a crowded room. Your best bet at that point is to blend in, not gyrate in a 180 and fall to the floor.

    There are far less obvious ways of getting into position to draw one's firearm.
    I was speaking specifically about someone walking right up behind you with a gun drawn, It would obviously be a bit over the top to pull that maneuver in a store robbery type of situation.

    To answer the question earlier about If I train to disarm or keep someone from disarming me, the answer is both. Not all situations are created equal as Since9 and JamesB pointed out.
    "The media's the most powerful entity on earth. They have the power to make the innocent guilty and to make the guilty innocent, and that's power. Because they control the minds of the masses."

    "How can you thank a man for giving you what's already yours? How then can you thank him for giving you only part of what is yours?"
    ó Malcolm X

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polynikes View Post
    Actually, the best way to defend against a gun grab (or a grab of any sort, for that matter) is to turn and move into the attacker.

    Consider this: If someone manages to get their hand on your gun before you realize what's happening, turning your strong side away from them gives their arm extra leverage.
    Howdy Pardner!
    You are right in your perspective in most cases. However, when you swing around the way I suggested, that elbow to the temple tends to drop them like a bad habit. The retention on my holster is really tough to get loose unless you are wearing the holster. It ain't all that easy to resnap the darn thing either.

    For the most part, the odds are really slim that this scenario will ever happen to any of us, but it is always great to discuss the various tactics one might employ if it does. Level 2 retention is a great place to start, and that elbow to the temple is a terrific way to finish.

    My 2 cents worth anyhow.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    I've had retention training, from a 20-yr friend, former MP and former LEO.

    1. Use a retention holster. Level 1, 2, or 3, with the more retention being better for helping thwart a grab, but also potentially more delaying in case you need to grab your own gun in self-defense.

    2. If you feel the slightest tug, IMMEDIATELY put your gun hand on the butt of your firearm and push down, HARD. DO NOT HESITATE! It's a lot harder to pull a firearm out of a holster than it is to push down, keeping it firmly in the holster. Your holster should restrict movement to one axis -- withdrawal. This allows you to put 100% of your strength into keeping your firearm in your holster, which also keeps it from being taken, fired or used against you. Your holster should also cover the trigger and guard, for the same reason. If it takes two hands to keep it in your holster, use two hands.

    3. While continuing to push down on your firearm as hard as you can, twist towards your firearm until you're squarely facing your assailant. If your firearm is on the right, twist to the right. The face-to-face will help break the assailant's desire to go for your gun.

    4. If the assailant hasn't backed off, again, do not hesitate -- with your free hand, shove your assailant squarely in the chest while taking a step back. Give it your best shove! If he's still go his hands on your firearm, you want to break contact. If he doesn't, you want distance and you do NOT want him grabbing you.

    5. Once you've got a couple feet of distance, what you do next depends on your local and state laws, so it's best to know them cold.

    It's also best to know the above procedure cold. Empty your firearm, triple-check that it's empty (both magazine and breech), grab a partner, and practice this over and over until it's second nature. Better yet, use a training firearm (rubber gun). Just don't draw it and point it at your partner... Practice that part against a paper target at the firing range.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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