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Thread: Self-Defense Shooting: Duty To Render Aid Afterwards?

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Self-Defense Shooting: Duty To Render Aid Afterwards?

    I was doing a little reading/research into MI Laws and came across a MI Law that requires a person render aid to someone they just shot. Since there is no exclusion for Self-Defense shootings, it appears that a person who acted in self-defense situation and shot someone must render aid to that person (among other things).

    The following is the Law - please read and provide comments if appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by DEATH OR INJURIES FROM FIREARMS - Act 10 of 1952
    AN ACT to define the duties of any person who discharges a firearm and thereby injures any person; and to prescribe penalties for violations of the provisions of this act.

    History: 1952, Act 10, Eff. Sept. 18, 1952

    752.841 Firearms; definition.

    Sec. 1.

    For the purposes of this act the word “firearm” shall mean any weapon or device from which is propelled any missile, projectile, bullet, shot, pellet or other mass by means of explosives, compressed air or gas, or by means of springs, levers or other mechanical device.

    752.842 Firearms; discharging; injuries.

    Sec. 2.

    Any person who discharges a firearm and thereby injures or fatally wounds another person, or has reason to believe he has injured or fatally wounded another person, shall immediately stop at the scene and shall give his name and address to the injured person, or any member of his party, and shall render to the person so injured immediate assistance and reasonable assistance in securing medical and hospital care and transportation for such injured person.

    752.843 Firearms; report of injury or death.

    Sec. 3.

    Every person who shall have caused or been involved in an accident in which a human being was killed or injured by means of a firearm, shall, in addition to complying with the provisions of section 2 of this act, immediately thereafter report such injury or death to the nearest office of the state police, or to the sheriff of the county wherein the death or injury occurred, unless such person be physically incapable of making the required report, in which event it shall be the duty of such person or persons to designate an agent to file the report. It shall be the duty of the sheriff, upon receipt of the report herein required, to transmit the same forthwith to the nearest office of the state police.

    752.844 Reports; availability for use.

    Sec. 4.

    Reports required to be filed under the provisions of this act shall not be available for use in any way in any court action, civil or criminal, and shall not be open to general public inspection, but shall be for the purpose of furnishing statistical information as to the number and cause of such accidents. This act shall be construed to supplement the law of this state with respect to evidence and its admissibility.

    752.845 Firearms; injury to person, penalty, suspension of hunting privileges.

    Sec. 5.

    Any person violating any of the provisions of this act shall, upon conviction thereof, be fined not more than $100.00 and costs of prosecution, or imprisonment in the county jail for not to exceed 90 days, or both such fine and imprisonment in the discretion of the court. In addition to any fine or imprisonment, the court may suspend the hunting privileges of such person for a period of not to exceed 3 years from the date of conviction.
    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-Act-10-of-1952

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    Good find. I remember reading that.

    So, when you shoot a marked gangbanger, a Blood for example, you're supposed to give his boyz your home address?

    Smart move.

    I think I'll take the misdemeanor, thanks.


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    Yup toss them a bandade, from a safe distance & call them a medic...

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    might want to read it again, theres more to it than that.

    I may have posted a funny sign, but this really is serious.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    That was the first thing that struck me too, "I'm supposed to give my home address to the mugger and his gang banging friends that I just shot in defense of my life???"

    Y'know, that law doesn't exempt law enforcement, at least as written. I wonder how many officers want their home address, with their wives and children in the hands of criminals who may bent on revenge?

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    That was the first thing that struck me too, "I'm supposed to give my home address to the mugger and his gang banging friends that I just shot in defense of my life???"

    Y'know, that law doesn't exempt law enforcement, at least as written. I wonder how many officers want their home address, with their wives and children in the hands of criminals who may bent on revenge?
    Good point.

    We should have exemptions for LEO and Self-Defense Situations.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    Good point.

    We should have exemptions for LEO and Self-Defense Situations.
    You all missed the 5th amd. issue as well. I don't think it's a good idea to admit to anyone that you shot someone. Also I suspect I will need medical assistance if I should ever shoot someone. Can anyone say chest pain???
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Wow, good find, I've never seen this. As it was enacted in 1952, I think it made sense...then. Back then, you couldn't transport a pistol many places unless you had a license to conceal, and not many people had one. Noting that part of the punishment was a loss of hunting privileges, I imagine that what the legislators envisioned was a deer hunter accidentally shooting someone. I don't think it even crossed the minds of legislators that it could be used against someone who had shot someone in self defense. I think such a shooting would be protected from the application of this; the self defense law states that you can use deadly force if certain criteria are met. That then negates this law, homicide, etc.

    Source: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-Act-309-of-2006
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    From the language used, it appears this law was mainly for Hunting Accidents and did not consider Officer Involved and Self-Defense Shootings. From the feedback provided, this law appears in need of change.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Wow, good find, I've never seen this. As it was enacted in 1952, I think it made sense...then. Back then, you couldn't transport a pistol many places unless you had a license to conceal, and not many people had one. Noting that part of the punishment was a loss of hunting privileges, I imagine that what the legislators envisioned was a deer hunter accidentally shooting someone. I don't think it even crossed the minds of legislators that it could be used against someone who had shot someone in self defense. I think such a shooting would be protected from the application of this; the self defense law states that you can use deadly force if certain criteria are met. That then negates this law, homicide, etc.

    Source: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-Act-309-of-2006
    The Self-Defense Law does not absolve all responsibilities, just provides an affirmative defense. Example: If I was to shoot in Self-Defense, I could still be held liable for damage to property for the rounds that missed their intended target.

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    Thumbs up A true nugget of wisdom from a experienced individual.

    I took my first CPL class [back then CCW] with General Laney and one of the first things he told the class was {I'm paraphrasing here} was that if you had to use your weapon never shoot to wound, shoot to kill. Sound advice in my honest opinion when your life is on the line.

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    render aid to someone who just tried to do me bodily harm? If I get close to them and they pull a knife and stab me in the femoral artery? okkaayyy then.

    I may be certified in first aid, but I'm not helping someone I just shot. If I needed to use my firearm for self-defense, no way will I put myself in harms way unnecessarily to try and help the person who tried to hurt me.
    Last edited by malignity; 08-27-2011 at 10:33 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Thumbs up +1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000

    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    render aid to someone who just tried to do me bodily harm? If I get close to them and they pull a knife and stab me in the femoral artery? okkaayyy then.

    I may be certified in first aid, but I'm not helping someone I just shot. If I needed to use my firearm for self-defense, no way will I put myself in harms way unnecessarily to try and help the person who tried to hurt me.
    ^
    Yep what he said above.
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Regular Member ISMOID's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    From the language used, it appears this law was mainly for Hunting Accidents and did not consider Officer Involved and Self-Defense Shootings. From the feedback provided, this law appears in need of change.
    +1

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    We've all this movie. The one where the bad looks dead but jumps back to life and attacks again just when the good guy gets close enough to take a look... No thanks. I'll keep my distance, thank you

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    Regular Member RenegadeMarine's Avatar
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    I don't see anything in there that says that you must render FIRST AID. What is says is:

    "shall render to the person so injured immediate assistance and reasonable assistance in securing medical and hospital care and transportation for such injured person."

    The way it sounds to me is a call to 911 would cover it.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    The Self-Defense Law does not absolve all responsibilities, just provides an affirmative defense. Example: If I was to shoot in Self-Defense, I could still be held liable for damage to property for the rounds that missed their intended target.
    Yes, it is an affirmative defense.
    Not disagreeing with you on the liability part, but please cite a source.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeMarine View Post
    I don't see anything in there that says that you must render FIRST AID. What is says is:

    "shall render to the person so injured immediate assistance and reasonable assistance in securing medical and hospital care and transportation for such injured person."

    The way it sounds to me is a call to 911 would cover it.
    Don't think the legislature contemplated 911, nor that people could call right away with a cell.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member kyleplusitunes's Avatar
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    Remember the north Hollywood shooting in the 1990's?

    The police let those guys bleed out and their families sued the dept and won because of their duty to render aid.

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    There is no excuse for that, or for a medic to sit on thier duff while someone needs help.

  21. #21
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Yes, it is an affirmative defense.
    Not disagreeing with you on the liability part, but please cite a source.
    CARELESS, RECKLESS, OR NEGLIGENT USE OF FIREARMS (EXCERPT)
    Act 45 of 1952

    752.862 Careless, reckless or negligent use of firearms; injury of property; penalty.

    Sec. 2.

    Any person who, because of carelessness, recklessness or negligence, but not wilfully or wantonly, shall cause or allow any firearm under his control to be discharged so as to destroy or injure the property of another, real or personal, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than 90 days or by a fine of not more than $100.00, if the injury to such property shall not exceed the sum of $50.00, but in the event that such injury shall exceed the sum of $50.00, then said offense shall be punishable by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than 1 year or by a fine not exceeding $500.00.

    History: 1952, Act 45, Eff. Sept. 18, 1952
    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-752-862

    Looks like this law could use some "updates" also...

    CARELESS, RECKLESS, OR NEGLIGENT USE OF FIREARMS (EXCERPT)
    Act 45 of 1952

    752.863a Reckless, wanton use or negligent discharge of firearm; penalty.

    Sec. 3.

    Any person who shall recklessly or heedlessly or wilfully or wantonly use, carry, handle or discharge any firearm without due caution and circumspection for the rights, safety or property of others shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

    History: Add. 1955, Act 14, Eff. Oct. 14, 1955
    Compiler's Notes: Section 3, as added by Act 14 of 1955, was compiled as MCL 752.863[a] to distinguish it from another section 3, deriving from Act 45 of 1952 and pertaining to the repeal of MCL 750.235a. The compilation number formerly assigned to this section was MCL 752.a863.
    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-752-863a
    Last edited by PDinDetroit; 08-28-2011 at 10:51 PM. Reason: Additional Cite Added.

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by kyleplusitunes View Post
    Remember the north Hollywood shooting in the 1990's?

    The police let those guys bleed out and their families sued the dept and won because of their duty to render aid.
    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    There is no excuse for that, or for a medic to sit on thier duff while someone needs help.
    Just in the last two years;

    A cop in Seattle shot a drunken wood carver, John T Williams, for no reason...

    Cops in Nevada shot a Costco shopper, Eric Scott, for no reason...

    A SWAT raid shot a Marine during a no knock raid, hitting him with twenty? rounds, for no reason...

    in each of these three incidents, the Cops REFUSED to allow paramedics to administer first aid!!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

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  23. #23
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    Cya

    ^ all caps

    C
    Y
    A
    Last edited by stainless1911; 08-29-2011 at 03:05 AM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    Render improper first aid, then get sued by the fam. for 'killing' the person because of your medical incompetence... LoL!!!


    I"m not gonna do anything but call 911.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Recoil88's Avatar
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    I know for damn sure if a bad guy shoots/stabs me he is not going to stop and render me aid.So i shall do the same for him.
    In a situation when seconds count-The police will be there in minutes.

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