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Thread: Question about Michigan CPL

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    Question about Michigan CPL

    Hello,

    I was visiting a friend in Michigan on Saturday. I live in Indiana, and we were discussing CPL/LTCH reprocitity between the two states. He then proceeds to show me his Arizona CCW permit (or CPL, or whatever it is called in Arizona). He has a second home he maintains in Arizona and lives at for a couple of months a year, but his primary residence is in Michigan. I say "primary residence" because his driver's license is issued by Michigan. We talk for a couple of minutes more and then it dawns on me so I ask him if he has his Michigan CPL. He answers no. According to my friend, a retired chief of police friend of his told him (and I am paraphrasing here) he didn't need the Michigan CPL because my friend has a home he maintains in Arizona and has an Arizona CCW. I didn't think to ask my friend or look close enough at the Arizona license to see if it was a non-resident.

    My question is, regardless of the second home, doesn't my friend have to have a Michigan CPL since his "primary residence" is in Michigan?

    My thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    In order for MI to recognize the permit the permit and DL have to be from the same state.

    Let's not forget about 18 USC 922 either...
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    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    In order for MI to recognize the permit the permit and DL have to be from the same state.

    Let's not forget about 18 USC 922 either...
    Thanks Q.

    I Googled 18 U.S.C. 922, but on the surface it appears to cover actions by FFL holders (importation, transfer, etc). I did not see a section that covered the situation I described, but I will comb through the Code more thoroughly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BGordon42 View Post
    Thanks Q.

    I Googled 18 U.S.C. 922, but on the surface it appears to cover actions by FFL holders (importation, transfer, etc). I did not see a section that covered the situation I described, but I will comb through the Code more thoroughly.
    He was referring to out of state CPLs do not meet the requirements of gun free zones. The CPL exception only applies to the state the CPL is issued from. So he would have to be careful of school zones.

    My opinion in your case is that your friend needs to get a AZ DL or get a Michigan CPL. He might as well since you don't need a CPL to OC or CC in AZ.
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    Get the Michigan CPL, or a map that shows everyplace that is a school, or could be interpreted as one, draw a 1,000+ foot circle around it, and marry that map.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Get the Michigan CPL, or a map that shows everyplace that is a school, or could be interpreted as one, draw a 1,000+ foot radius circle around it, and marry that map.
    Also, keep in mind, the 1,000 feet is from the property lines and not the school building(s).

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    Thumbs up

    Thanks for the correction XD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Thanks for the correction XD.
    YW

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BGordon42 View Post
    Hello,

    I was visiting a friend in Michigan on Saturday. I live in Indiana, and we were discussing CPL/LTCH reprocitity between the two states. He then proceeds to show me his Arizona CCW permit (or CPL, or whatever it is called in Arizona). He has a second home he maintains in Arizona and lives at for a couple of months a year, but his primary residence is in Michigan. I say "primary residence" because his driver's license is issued by Michigan. We talk for a couple of minutes more and then it dawns on me so I ask him if he has his Michigan CPL. He answers no. According to my friend, a retired chief of police friend of his told him (and I am paraphrasing here) he didn't need the Michigan CPL because my friend has a home he maintains in Arizona and has an Arizona CCW. I didn't think to ask my friend or look close enough at the Arizona license to see if it was a non-resident.

    My question is, regardless of the second home, doesn't my friend have to have a Michigan CPL since his "primary residence" is in Michigan?

    My thanks in advance.
    If he stated the primary v secondary argument to a LEO, he would most likely lose.
    Actually, a police officer could take his word for it or choose to arrest your friend. Michigan law states that a Michigan resident must have permit from Michigan. But technically, this only referred to someone who was ONLY a Michigan resident. Although one can only have one residence at a time, he could argue that his residence in Arizona is his residence.
    A court would definitely look at the totality of the circumstances... ie driver's license, vehicle registration, state of employment etc. The more indices of Michigan residency a person has, the more likely it is a court would rule against your friend... and I think vehicle registration, voter registration, and driver's license would perhaps be weighted more than other factors. If I were he, I would get the Michigan CPL. Yes, it is expensive, but it does provide more reciprocity than a license from Arizona. Also, I would rather pay the money for a CPL than pay the thousands of dollars for legal council, not to mention the cost of a felony if found guilty. If that happened, he also may never be able to possess a firearm never again.

    See People v Williams (1997)

    http://www.constitution.org/2ll/bard...v_williams.txt
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  10. #10
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Are his handguns registered in MI? If I was a cop I'd nail him. MI driver's license = MI resident in my book.

    From our CPL licensing satute, 28.425b (excerpt)

    For the purposes of this section, a person shall be considered a legal resident of this state if any of the following apply:

    (i) The person has a valid, lawfully obtained Michigan driver license issued under the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.1 to 257.923, or official state personal identification card issued under 1972 PA 222, MCL 28.291 to 28.300.

    (ii) The person is lawfully registered to vote in this state.

    (iii) The person is on active duty status with the United States armed forces and is stationed outside of this state, but the person's home of record is in this state.

    (iv) The person is on active duty status with the United States armed forces and is permanently stationed in this state, but the person's home of record is in another state.
    Like I said, if he's got a MI license he's a MI resident.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 08-29-2011 at 03:04 AM.
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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Are his handguns registered in MI? If I was a cop I'd nail him. MI driver's license = MI resident in my book.

    From our CPL licensing satute, 28.425b (excerpt)



    Like I said, if he's got a MI license he's a MI resident.

    Bronson
    Well it seems to me just because you have a MI DL or registered to vote or anything like that would not totally qualify you to have to get the MI CPL. Take for example I decide to Indiana. I still have a MI DL but I get an Indiana DL, register my car in Indiana, and get an Indiana LTCH. I still have my MI DL and am registered to vote but would I still be required to get a MI CPL if I were to come up to MI to visit family? I would hope not! But from the sound of his friends situation he would get nailed on that Arizona permit thing.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Well it seems to me just because you have a MI DL or registered to vote or anything like that would not totally qualify you to have to get the MI CPL. Take for example I decide to Indiana. I still have a MI DL but I get an Indiana DL, register my car in Indiana, and get an Indiana LTCH. I still have my MI DL and am registered to vote but would I still be required to get a MI CPL if I were to come up to MI to visit family? I would hope not! But from the sound of his friends situation he would get nailed on that Arizona permit thing.
    I think it is against the law to have two DLs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    I think it is against the law to have two DLs.
    Correct. Previous dl must be surrendered when you obtain a new/different one.
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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Hmm never knew that. The things you learn on this website!
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    It is, even from the same state.

    If you could just keep a back up in your car, they would miss out on the very expensive ticket for simply being a forgetful human being.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    It is, even from the same state.

    If you could just keep a back up in your car, they would miss out on the very expensive ticket for simply being a forgetful human being.
    Idk about that. I got a DL when I turned 16 then when I turned 17 they sent me another DL because the first one tech had a restriction on it because I was only 16. Never was told I had to turn in the one I had when I turned 16.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Couple friends had kept them, were searched, and the extra one was confiscated. They were not happy.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Couple friends had kept them, were searched, and the extra one was confiscated. They were not happy.
    Hmm weird. Is it possible to get 2 MI CPL? If my wallet were to ever get stolen or something I'd want to have some sort of back-up.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    It would save you getting your gun taken. I dont recall the cite, but if you dont have your CPL on you, they take the gun, and you have (40?) days to prove you had a CPL or it is lost to forfeit.

  20. #20
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    It would save you getting your gun taken. I dont recall the cite, but if you dont have your CPL on you, they take the gun, and you have (40?) days to prove you had a CPL or it is lost to forfeit.
    They only take it? Seems to be if there is no way for them to look it up they'd not only take the gun downtown but you too.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    If they couldnt look it up, probably, but they could run your other info to discover you at least had a valid CCPL.

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    Thanks for all the responses guys. When I speak to my friend next, I will pass along the info.

  23. #23
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    If they couldnt look it up, probably, but they could run your other info to discover you at least had a valid CCPL.
    Then why seize your gun and not give it back until you can prove you have it? Just seems a lil silly to me.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  24. #24
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    It is silly. Remebmer, gun control isnt about guns, its about control.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    It would save you getting your gun taken. I dont recall the cite, but if you dont have your CPL on you, they take the gun, and you have (40?) days to prove you had a CPL or it is lost to forfeit.
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(ehn...0625&highlight=

    (7) A pistol carried in violation of this section is subject to immediate seizure by a peace officer. If a peace officer seizes a pistol under this subsection, the individual has 45 days in which to display his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer. If the individual displays his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer within the 45-day period, the authorized employee of that law enforcement entity shall return the pistol to the individual unless the individual is prohibited by law from possessing a firearm. If the individual does not display his or her license or documentation within the 45-day period, the pistol is subject to forfeiture as provided in section 5g. A pistol is not subject to immediate seizure under this subsection if both of the following circumstances exist:

    (a) The individual has his or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card in his or her possession when the violation occurs.

    (b) The peace officer verifies through the law enforcement information network that the individual is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol.

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