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Thread: You're Busted!

  1. #1
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    You're Busted!

    Howdy Folks!
    I work up in Brighton but live in Aurora. We live in a mobile home community.
    Behind the clubhouse is a swimming pool. It is entirely enclosed in a chain link fence, and padlocked when closed.

    After work I returned home around 9pm and as I came to an intersection where I could see the clubhouse pool, I noticed several kids had climbed over the fence and were in the pool. Terrific! One of those kids drowns and their parents (shoddy as they must be) turn and sue the park for their young'uns trespass. So I drove around and stopped my car in front of the clubhouse.

    I was OC'ing my P94 Ruger .40 cal in an IWB holster with black pants and a black tee shirt. I headed directly for the pool area, and there they were, swimming merrily away.
    "What the hell are you people doing in the pool?" I asked in a gruff manner.
    Two other hooligans on bikes, just outside the fence, ran off when they saw me. I heard one tell the other "That guy's a cop!"
    I've never said I'm a cop, but if that's what they think, peachy! The more of these young criminals in the making that believe I'm a cop, the less likely they'll be to do nefarious things around my home. We've had vandalism before, but this year has been much quieter around my neighborhood.

    Anyhow, not satisfied with the answer I got from those kids, I hollered
    "Get your butts out of the water. There is a reason the gate is padlocked."
    Then I asked the girl, while taking out a notebook and pen:
    "What is your name and lot number?"
    She gave a name, probably bogus, and said she did not know her lot number.
    "How can you not know where you live? Are you mentally impaired?"
    She said they'd just moved in and she didn't know her lot number.
    Then to the boy I demanded;
    "What is your name and lot number?"
    He gave a name and lot number, both I'm sure will prove to be bogus as well.
    "Get your butts out of this pool area now. Not ten minutes from now. NOW!"
    They dried off with towels then climbed back over the fence.
    "Next time I see you kids in this pool when it is close, I'll detain you for arrest. Got it?"

    They left the area and I wanted to kick myself for not holding them there until calling Aurora PD, but I left my cellular in the car. Meanwhile, I am pretty certain those kids will pass the word that they got busted for trespassing in the pool area by what they believe (however falsely) was a cop. Talking with another neighbor moments later, I learned that this isn't the first time kids have climbed the fence to swim after the pool is closed and that her husband also ejected kids from the pool several days before. But this time, those kids were met with an armed man who was quite commanding in his demeanor.

    Another neighbor, while discussing hooliganism in our neighborhood, noted that there was much less trouble in our end of the park this summer. Usually every summer, there is some sort of trouble. One year kids went around using spray paint to put graffitti on homes. Another summer, kids went around busting windows out of many cars in the park. This year we've had none of that. One of the reasons for my open carry is for that message to go out to the young hoodlums responsible for such activity that at least one homeowner is armed. That encounter at the pool will further ensure peace in our neighborhood, because they believe (albeit falsely) there's a cop on my street.

    All in all, I think it was a favorable exercise.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  2. #2
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    If the kids do live in the park, they committed no crime--just violated park regulations. Still, hopefully you scared them enough to think twice.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

  3. #3
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    If the kids do live in the park, they committed no crime--just violated park regulations. Still, hopefully you scared them enough to think twice.
    Howdy gunslinger I think you maybe wrong this time
    polario was then stop and padlock for a reason.
    For those kids to go across the fence the way they did constitutes trespassing.
    It would be no different than defeating the locks for the club house to gain access when it was closed

    Maybe I'm wrong but it sure looks like trespassing to me. As far as getting those kids a good scare I think I did the job.

    Thank you for your reply.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  4. #4
    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    I'm actually not sure how to respond to this one.

    I have had the same disagreement within my own head lately. There is a park right across the street from my house and there are kids playing basketball until 3:00 in the morning some days. The park is posted that it closes at 10pm. So, of course there's this voice in my head (I think it's my grandfather's) saying "Breaking the damn rules..." and several days I've come close to calling the boys in blue and feeling justified for it. But there is this whole other side that says "let a kid be a kid, they aint hurtin nothin" and they do try to keep noise down while they do it. God knows I'd rather see them out getting some fresh air (well, fresher) and a little exercise, than sitting at home in front of a tv absorbing thoughtlessness, and dropping thier bone density.

    I also understand that the dangers of unsupervised basketball on concrete is not the same as drowning in an unsupervised pool, but perhaps that just means I need to grab a good book and a lawn chair so that it's no longer unsupervised.

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    Makes me appreciate

    growing up in Alaska. In the summer there was 24 hours of daylight, no real rules, and if you left other people alone then you got left alone. I feel sorry for kids in big cities.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    After work I returned home around 9pm and as I came to an intersection where I could see the clubhouse pool, I noticed several kids had climbed over the fence and were in the pool. Terrific! One of those kids drowns and their parents (shoddy as they must be) turn and sue the park for their young'uns trespass. So I drove around and stopped my car in front of the clubhouse.

    M-Taliesin
    I like you, man, I really do, but I think you were a big old kill-joy and should have just said 'don't get hurt or caught' if you said anything. As kids we had a lot of fun and weren't over-parented.

    $.02
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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    hahaha, sounds like you handled that pretty well, all without impersonating an officer. The "I'll detain you FOR arrest" was a nice touch. You basically told them you couldn't arrest them, but I'm sure they were too freaked out to realize that.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy gunslinger I think you maybe wrong this time
    polario was then stop and padlock for a reason.
    For those kids to go across the fence the way they did constitutes trespassing.
    It would be no different than defeating the locks for the club house to gain access when it was closed

    Maybe I'm wrong but it sure looks like trespassing to me. As far as getting those kids a good scare I think I did the job.

    Thank you for your reply.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

    Yes, it does happen to be considered trespassing. I live in an apartment community and they did mention back in the June (May issue, forgot which one) Newsletter that if anyone was caught in the pool after it was closed they could be cited for trespass and have a police escort home. And the reporting resident would get $100 off next months rent! Sadly I live in PDR, but wonder if I can still OC on my apt property? It's still private property, and I live there. Any takers on this?

  9. #9
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    I like you, man, I really do, but I think you were a big old kill-joy and should have just said 'don't get hurt or caught' if you said anything. As kids we had a lot of fun and weren't over-parented.

    $.02
    Howdy Badger!
    This place is actually private property that leases/rents lots to home owners. We have common areas that are free for our use, but when the pool area is closed and the fence around it locked with a chain and padlock, that should not be construed as an invitation to climb over the fence (which is about 10 feet high, btw) and violate the property owner's rights by trespassing into an area obviously intended that people stay out of.
    Okay, so I dangled a preposition. Pobody's Nerfect.

    I could ignore kids hanging around the club house all hours of the night. I could ignore their smoking pot by the mail boxes. I could ignore them walking around the neighborhood in the dead of night. But this is one I would not ignore and I'll explain why:

    Suppose, if you will, one of those kids who trespassed started drowning. The second kid climbs over the fence to call for help. The fire department arrives along with paramedics and an ambulance. They can't get to the victim because of the locked gate. By the time they fetch a bolt cutter and get through, the kid in the pool is dead as a mackrel. Now the parents, who have no clue what their offspring are doing when out at all hours of the night, suddenly decide to sue the community park owners because their darling kid drown while trespassing. They win a huge settlement, perhaps driving the property owners into bankruptcy. Next thing you know, everybody who lives here must come up with $3,000 to 5,000 dollars to move to another mobile home park. When you think about some of the outrageous awards courts are handing out in ridiculous suits (like the woman who burnt her crotch with Micky D's coffee and sued because no label on the cup indicated it would be hot!!!!!) Considering the possible consequences, ain't it much easier just to boot the little cretins out of the pool?

    Anyhow, that was my decision, and I stand by it.

    My .02 cents in return. I got 'em out of a Coinstar machine while passing through King Soopers just the other day! LOL!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  10. #10
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bogidu View Post
    growing up in Alaska. In the summer there was 24 hours of daylight, no real rules, and if you left other people alone then you got left alone. I feel sorry for kids in big cities.
    Howdy Bogidu!
    I'm pretty sure that crossing somebody's fence line in Alaska is frowned upon just as it is here in Colorado, or in Illinois, or Kansas, or Florida.
    Private property rights need to be respected. It has been a subject of much discussion on the OCDO forum. If we expect others to respect our 2a rights, then we must respect the rights of property owners. In this case, I stepped in when a couple of kids crossed the fence line they had no business crossing. They had access to the pool all day long. They have run of the entire park and may go where they please and do what they will. But once they cross the boundaries into another's property, creating possible harm to themselves or others, it is no longer just kids having a good time. It is trespassing in an area they have no business being.

    My 2 cents on the matter.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  11. #11
    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    I'm actually suprised. (Not really) Most people I know that live in trailer parks have more sense than the average obama supporter.
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    But once they cross the boundaries into another's property, creating possible harm to themselves or others, it is no longer just kids having a good time. It is trespassing in an area they have no business being.
    ^%$&^%$&%^^%^ lost my post. Both OCDO and Netflix take up so much bandwidth running them both crashes things if there's a little glitch. Netflix has a legitimate reason. I don't know what besides the banner ads OCDO is running for this.

    Anyhow, I was saying something along the lines of not caring for hooliganism even when I was a kid. First it's jumping the fence. Then it's bringing the booze and dope. Then it's breaking into unoccupied trailers. Then it's joyriding. And, and, and.

    I would have walked them over to the "bogus" lot and/or asked for a parent's number. Somewhere toward the end of the encounter I would have said something along the lines of "No, I'm not a cop, I'm a resident who doesn't care for kids making a mess of where I live. The police do back that opinion though and they can be here in about 30 seconds if you'd like to discuss it with them."

  13. #13
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrayingForWar View Post
    I'm actually suprised. (Not really) Most people I know that live in trailer parks have more sense than the average obama supporter.
    Howdy PFW!
    I read your remark several times, and still can't figure out what you're trying to say.

    Whatever point you were trying to make, thanks for responding to my post. I guess.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  14. #14
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy gunslinger I think you maybe wrong this time
    polario was then stop and padlock for a reason.
    For those kids to go across the fence the way they did constitutes trespassing.
    It would be no different than defeating the locks for the club house to gain access when it was closed

    Maybe I'm wrong but it sure looks like trespassing to me. As far as getting those kids a good scare I think I did the job.

    Thank you for your reply.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    I can't say for sure, not knowing the whole story. But forced entry is different than climbing a fence to an area normally open to residents. What signs are posted at the pool? That may be the telling event.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    You really wish you'd held them for police, over swimming after hours?

    First, the police would roll their eyes at you for being "that guy". Second, involving the park and their parents is going to be far more effective than the police.

    Calling the police almost never helps, especially when there's a personal confrontation involved. Call the police to protect yourself legally, but don't call them just because you're irritated with someone.

    You've repeated several times that the fence and locked gate make it private property; thus, it's not yours either, right?

    Chill out.

  16. #16
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    You really wish you'd held them for police, over swimming after hours?

    First, the police would roll their eyes at you for being "that guy". Second, involving the park and their parents is going to be far more effective than the police.

    Calling the police almost never helps, especially when there's a personal confrontation involved. Call the police to protect yourself legally, but don't call them just because you're irritated with someone.

    You've repeated several times that the fence and locked gate make it private property; thus, it's not yours either, right?

    Chill out.
    Howdy Amigo!
    First, I pay to live here. Second, I've spoken to the managers and they were thankful that I got those kids out of the pool area before somebody got hurt. Third, as I've said before, I could care less that kids run around the park as they do, so long as they respect private property. They were trespassing. What part of that eludes you? What else should we overlook? Maybe the incidents last year where they went around spray painting grafitti on people's exterior walls? Or the year before when they amused themselves running around the park busting out windows of automobiles all over the entire community?

    After we got tired of such vandalism, many of us started looking out for each other's property. And that includes our common areas, such as the club house.

    I won't bother to say what I'd really like, out of respect.
    But will say this... go find somebody else to judge.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Last edited by M-Taliesin; 08-30-2011 at 05:32 AM.

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    It never pleases anyone to find kids, adults, or Zombies wondering around on their property.
    As for kids, doesnt matter what title or manners they have, I have learned a lot as to dealing with them.
    I have a neighbor who has a couple of big catfish ponds. Some neighborhood punks decided they would sneek in there and fish in his pond without asking. At first I thought he was going to be a real hard ass about it when we cought them. Well I was wrong and learned somethig from the old guy. He chewed their asses out for not asking, but also told them that they were welcome to fish there anytime. First he instructed them on the chores they had to do. This idea worked out just fine. Those two boys were happy to do as the man instructed them to and got to fish all they wanted.
    I like to work with kids on a different level than I would with an adult. Could be that moblie home community could have had some boy's who were willing to do those little things that nobody does. Im sure everybody around there complains about something that doesnt get attended to.
    Hell, I even cought a kid cold turkey in the middle of the night while he was trying to steal my tail lights out of my truck. I didnt press charges on him either because his step dad put him up to it. I did deal with step dad POS though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    I can't say for sure, not knowing the whole story. But forced entry is different than climbing a fence to an area normally open to residents. What signs are posted at the pool? That may be the telling event.
    Trespassing in Texas is pretty cut and dry. Sign posted, or verbal communication. After one of those two have been established, the results are simple.
    And purple paint, dont forget the purple paint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    ^%$&^%$&%^^%^ lost my post. Both OCDO and Netflix take up so much bandwidth running them both crashes things if there's a little glitch. Netflix has a legitimate reason. I don't know what besides the banner ads OCDO is running for this.

    Anyhow, I was saying something along the lines of not caring for hooliganism even when I was a kid. First it's jumping the fence. Then it's bringing the booze and dope. Then it's breaking into unoccupied trailers. Then it's joyriding. And, and, and.

    I would have walked them over to the "bogus" lot and/or asked for a parent's number. Somewhere toward the end of the encounter I would have said something along the lines of "No, I'm not a cop, I'm a resident who doesn't care for kids making a mess of where I live. The police do back that opinion though and they can be here in about 30 seconds if you'd like to discuss it with them."
    At first, a little leadership and walking straight just might prevent all of the rest.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR Redenck View Post
    Trespassing in Texas is pretty cut and dry. Sign posted, or verbal communication. After one of those two have been established, the results are simple.
    And purple paint, dont forget the purple paint.
    Not as cut and dried in Colorado when dealing with 'common areas.' Could indeed be trespassing, depending upon signage, but may just be a violation of park regulations. Either way, not saying M-shouldn't have kicked their butts out, but holding for the police could be another story, i.e., false arrest. And if armed while doing it, could open up some problems he doesn't need.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

  21. #21
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR Redenck View Post
    It never pleases anyone to find kids, adults, or Zombies wondering around on their property.

    I have a neighbor who has a couple of big catfish ponds. Some neighborhood punks decided they would sneek in there and fish in his pond without asking.
    Howdy Pard!
    I gotta believe you live in a rural area of west Texas. These kids we're talking about here, given the option to do chores in exchange for fishing, would have likely told ya to perform an impossible abuse upon yourself. They don't cater to respecting adults and will tell you straight up what to do with yourself. They ain't been brought up respectful or mannerly. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of really great kids in this park. Then there are the others that think of themselves as "Gangsta" and wear their britches way off the haunch! Offer them a trade, and they only accept so they can see what valuables you have that they might purloin later. Offer them a ride somewhere, and find your automotive electronics ripped off one fine morning when you get up! They move around the park in packs, and the decent kids avoid them. In fact, one of those decent kids was with me when I confronted those that trespassed into the pool area.

    I grew up in a rural area myself, and city living is entirely different from what I came up with. We didn't have car jackings in our little town or any in the vicinity. You didn't hear about flash mobs attacking businesses or citizens with near impunity. You never saw graffitti. Never had to worry about your car being left out all night or having every piece of glass busted out with a ball bat. The gangs kids get into today are totally unlike the "Toni Street Gang" of my youth. We were much more like "Our Gang" from the comedy series that has obviously dated me for mentioning, than a gang of thugs in the making. And our parents cared enough to keep tabs on us. We could be out after dark but our folks were not ignorant of our whereabouts or what we were getting up to!

    Since many of these kids around these parts carry knives and sometimes even guns, I'd rather throw them out on my own, as I did in this case, and berate them for their behavior. But push comes to shove, I'd rather have Aurora PD escort them to their homes than me. I don't have any authority to transport them anywhere. I can detain them until PD arrives, and let them discuss with the parents the need for a little guidance for their offspring, believing that it wouldn't do much good anyhow. But that's a confrontation the officer gets paid to have, not me.

    Since I started open carrying in the spring, we haven't had the sort of trouble in my part of the park we've had inflicted upon us in previous years. No spray paint attacks, no gang markings indelibly stensiled onto the siding of our homes, no busted out windows in our cars. I never indicated in any way that I might be a cop, but so long as they jumped to that conclusion and trouble stays away from my home and my block, that's okay with me.

    So what is it with Texans showing up on this thread anyhow? Two now in 24 hours.
    Not trying to be combative, just curious considering this is the open carry forum and you guys don't have that freedom in Texas.
    And I intend to offer no disrespect when I point out, so far as open carry is concerned, the phrase "Don't mess with Texas" seems ironic considering Texas has messed itself up with regard to that particular right.

    What's up with that, eh?

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Since I started open carrying in the spring, we haven't had the sort of trouble in my part of the park we've had inflicted upon us in previous years. No spray paint attacks, no gang markings indelibly stensiled onto the siding of our homes, no busted out windows in our cars.
    And that, friend, I would consider a prime example of "a little leadership and walking straight to prevent all of the rest". I really find it incongruous that the TX visitor to our state board would advocate setting a good example on one side but admonish you for watching out for your neighbors on the other. IME in city or rural living, it's when we stop watching out for eachother that problems start. I don't mean walking into someone else's home to discipline their kids, but making it known what kind of behaviour won't be tolerated in public goes a long way.

    I know all the neighbors on my block and most of those behind me. I also know the majority of them are armed. Now if we could just advertise that to would-be thugs to pick another block.
    Last edited by mahkagari; 08-30-2011 at 12:23 PM.

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    M-T your talking about kids, trespassing, and the punishment of it all. Yes I take account to the subject. Eventhough im in "rural" west Texas that doesnt mean all the kids are led right. Like many other place we have a terrible problem with Meth heads, theivs, and a big problem with Cartel trash. I simply make all the effort I can to help a kid when I can. With that said, I have sent a few 17 year old to prison as well. If you cant help, then deal with em as necessary. I have no idea what goes on in your part of the world but it cant be much different than around here. Kids that want to be "gangster" are a big problem. I cant say anthing about the way you handle your issues and im not going to. I just like to remind people that trying to help a kid has its reward.
    As for your Texas open carry comment, Man Im laughing my ass off right now. You have no idea who I am and What I have done. Nor do you have a clue what I am planning to do.
    As for the term " Dont Mess With Texas", it was just waiting for me to define it. George Straight had his fun with it, now were taking it to another level.
    Next time you deal with some misguided kids you might want to talk to them like they are kids. I have found that most misguided kids got that way due to poor leadership and POS parents. Explaining what they are doing wrong in a helpful way will do you and those kids more justice in the long run.
    If you expect kids to grow up and be good adults, I prefer walking straight and showing them how to get there.
    Last edited by MR Redenck; 08-30-2011 at 04:26 PM.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    "How can you not know where you live? Are you mentally impaired?"
    Priceless!

    They left the area and I wanted to kick myself for not holding them there until calling Aurora PD...
    A good scare is often sufficient. Who knows what the Aurora PD would have done? They might have wound up in juvi, or spending 100 hours of community service. That's no fun, but the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

    As for whether or not it's trespassing, it most certainly is tresspassing. Being there outside of posted times is itself sufficient to constitute trespassing. Jumping a fence with a locked gate elevates it from third degree criminal trespassing to second degree criminal trespassing:

    18-4-503. Second degree criminal trespass.

    (1) A person commits the crime of second degree criminal trespass if such person:

    (a) Unlawfully enters or remains in or upon the premises of another which are enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders or are fenced;

    (2) Second degree criminal trespass is a class 3 misdemeanor
    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    hahaha, sounds like you handled that pretty well, all without impersonating an officer. The "I'll detain you FOR arrest" was a nice touch. You basically told them you couldn't arrest them, but I'm sure they were too freaked out to realize that.
    Actually, he most certainly could have arrested them:

    C.R.S. 16-3-201. Arrest by a private person: "A person who is not a peace officer may arrest another person when any crime has been or is being committed by the arrested person in the presence of the person making the arrest."

    A private citizen may arrest for any crime committed in his presence. Schiffner v. People, 173 Colo. 123, 476 P.2d 756 (1970).

    Officer outside of jurisdiction arrests with authority of private citizen. A peace officer acting outside the territorial limits of his jurisdiction does not have any less authority to arrest than does a person who is a private citizen. People v. Wolf, 635 P.2d 213 (Colo. 1981).

    When "in presence" requirement met. The "in presence" requirement of this section is met if the arrestor observes acts which are in themselves sufficiently indicative of a crime in the course of commission. People v. Olguin, 187 Colo. 34, 528 P.2d 234 (1974).

    F.B.I. agent had authority as private citizen to arrest one escaping from police station in his presence. Schiffner v. People, 173 Colo. 123, 476 P.2d 756 (1970).

    Hospital security guards, like any other citizens, have the power to make a citizen's arrest. People v. Olguin, 187 Colo. 34, 528 P.2d 234 (1974).

    An arrest must be first authorized under this section before a private person can use physical force to effect the arrest. People v. Joyce, 68 P.3d 521 (Colo. App. 2002).

    Applied in People v. Lott, 197 Colo. 78, 589 P.2d 945 (1979).
    The only requirements are:
    A. Is a crime being committed? Trespassing is a crime.
    B. Is the arresting citizen an eyewitness to the crime? M was an eyewitness to the crime.

    On the other hand, you're far less likely to be successfully sued if one simply detains the individuals until law enforcement arrives.
    Last edited by since9; 08-30-2011 at 04:59 PM.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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