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Thread: Don't get MN & FL permits.

  1. #1
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Don't get MN & FL permits.

    UT & AZ is a better combination. It is cheaper and gets more states. An Arizona permit is good in Nevada.

    Florida $117.00
    Minnesota $50-100

    OR

    Arizona $60.00
    Utah $62.25


    No live fire is required.


    Both Utah and Arizona are both Open Carry states.

    Arizona is Gold Star Open Carry state.

    Utah allows for Open Carry w/o a permit, but the firearm has to be 2 actions from firing. Open Carry with any permit can be locked and loaded.

    But on the other hand, Open Carry is prohibited in Florida and you NEED a permit to in Minnesota.

    Arizona and Utah will both honor a WI Permit. Infact, they both honor ALL permits.

    Florida most likely will honor a WI permit, but Minnesota won't. Florida will only recognize resident permits and Minnesota only honors permits from 16 states.

    An Arizona application can be mailed in. A Minnesota application must be submitted in person in Minnesota.

    Arizona is also a Constitutional Carry State.

    This is my main point. We send a message on the national level by which states we choose to do business with.

    Everyone in Wisconsin should abandon thier Minnesota and Florida permits. Or atleast do not renew them when they expire.

    Do business with states that bo a better job in honoring our Constitutional Rights.

    It's the patiotic thing to do.

    It's your duty.

    IMHO.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 09-05-2011 at 01:49 AM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Canard's Avatar
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    Unless you want to carry in FL. Right now they don't recognize WI so TI carry there you have to get a non-resident permit. Permits from other recognized states won't be recognized there unless you are a resident of the state that issued the permit.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canard View Post
    Unless you want to carry in FL. Right now they don't recognize WI so TI carry there you have to get a non-resident permit. Permits from other recognized states won't be recognized there unless you are a resident of the state that issued the permit.
    So, when FL does recognize a WI permit, then AZ & UT are a better combination than MN & FL for Wisconsin Residents who travel out-of-state.

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    Too early to draw any conclusions. Under ACT35 the DoJ has authority to enter into reciprocity agreements with other states. Those agreements can be different than what we are speculating. In spite of the fine letter of the laws I suspect the DoJ will try hard to enter into reciprocity wth at least all the contiguous states. That is where the majority of inter-state travel of permit holders will take place. At this time any conclusion is a guess.

  5. #5
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    Too early to draw any conclusions. Under ACT35 the DoJ has authority to enter into reciprocity agreements with other states. Those agreements can be different than what we are speculating. In spite of the fine letter of the laws I suspect the DoJ will try hard to enter into reciprocity wth at least all the contiguous states. That is where the majority of inter-state travel of permit holders will take place. At this time any conclusion is a guess.
    Michigan recoginizes ALL Resident permits, so is it just a guess that Michigan will reconize aWisconsin permit?

    Vermont recognizes ALL permits, so is it just a guess that Vermont will recognize a Wisconsin permit?

    There is a difference between 'reciprocity' and 'recognition'. Example: Minnesota permit will be good in Wisconsin, but a Wisconsin permit is not good in Minnesota. There is NO reciprocity, but Wisconsin will recognize Minnesota permits.



    Florida recoginzes Resident permits from 35 states, ALL except:

    States that DO NOT recognize other states permits
    California
    Connecticut
    Hawaii
    Maine
    Maryland
    Massachusetts
    New Jersey
    New York
    Oregon
    Rhode Island
    District of Columbia

    States that require you to apply in person
    Minnesota

    States that require you to take approved training with live fire qualifications within the state and apply in person
    Nevada

    States that do not issue permits and prohibit open or conceal carry
    Illinios

    States that do not issue permits but does allow open and conceal carry
    Vermont

    Captian Nemo, do you see the pattern here? OR am I just guessing?
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 08-28-2011 at 04:44 PM.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiscollector View Post
    wrong....... MN is not $100. Its $100 MAX with most offices charging $75 and some even charge $50.

    The only thing wrong with MN is that its training has a renewal at 5 years and that you need to apply in person, which is no bigge since I live close to the border.

    When my MN CCW expires I will get a UT instead of renewing MN.
    I changed it to $50-100

    If you ever consider getting a FL permit, I suggest you get a AZ permit instead.

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Exclamation Already Sent In My Arizona Permit Application

    I did not realize that AZ changed their laws until just recently. It used to be that you had to get the AZ permit training in AZ. Now, you can select from a menu of qualified firearms training courses including NRA courses. I sent in my AZ permit application on August 10, 2011 and am patiently waiting for the permit to arrive in the mail.

    I am going to keep my FL permit though as I have friends there and visit. A FL permit makes the Federal GFSZ moot. I am going to let my PA permit lapse because now you have to go to PA to renew AND the fees went up.

    I agree, a UT + AZ permit + WI permit will get a WI resident into the most States. (AZ is recognized in NV for those "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" trips.) I may also renew my NV permit just for an excuse to go to Vegas.

    So, to my students in WI, a UT permit is proof of training for an AZ permit. Completion of NRA Basic Pistol Course is proof of training for an AZ permit. (See related post on UT CFP Class in SE Wisconsin on Labor Day to be followed by NRA Basic Pistol Course). Source: www.handgunlaw.us

    Carry On Friends
    Last edited by jpm84092; 08-28-2011 at 06:46 PM. Reason: Added source reference
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Utah allows for Open Carry w/o a permit, but the firearm has to be 2 actions from firing.

    Curious, what is "an action"? Does that mean that a permit is required to open carry a loaded Glock, but not required to open carry a cocked-and-locked 1911?

  9. #9
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Utah allows for Open Carry w/o a permit, but the firearm has to be 2 actions from firing.
    Quote Originally Posted by amaixner View Post
    Curious, what is "an action"? Does that mean that a permit is required to open carry a loaded Glock, but not required to open carry a cocked-and-locked 1911?
    He left out two important parts. First, this applies to public streets, which unfortunately is not defined.

    Second, there may not be a round in the firing position. (i.e. chamber) This would apply the same for a 1911 or a Glock.

    The law specifies that more than one "manual operation of any mechanism" is required. Semi Auto? 1= Rack slide, 2= pull trigger.

    Of course, none of this applies in Utah if you have a permit from any State or County.

    76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
    (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
    (2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
    (3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.

    76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
    (1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
    (a) in or on a vehicle, unless:
    (i) the vehicle is in the person's lawful possession; or
    (ii) the person is carrying the loaded firearm in a vehicle with the consent of the person lawfully in possession of the vehicle;
    (b) on a public street; or
    (c) in a posted prohibited area.
    (2) Subsection (1)(a) does not apply to a minor under 18 years of age, since a minor under 18 years of age may not carry a loaded firearm in or on a vehicle.
    (3) Notwithstanding Subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii), a person may not possess a loaded rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading rifle in a vehicle.
    (4) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.
    76-10-523. Persons exempt from weapons laws.
    ...
    (2) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1) and (2), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued:
    (a) pursuant to Section 53-5-704; or
    (b) by another state or county.
    Last edited by Kevin Jensen; 08-29-2011 at 12:15 PM.
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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Jensen View Post
    He left out two important parts. First, this applies to public streets, which unfortunately is not defined.

    Second, there may not be a round in the firing position. (i.e. chamber) This would apply the same for a 1911 or a Glock.

    The law specifies that more than one "manual operation of any mechanism" is required. Semi Auto? 1= Rack slide, 2= pull trigger.

    Of course, none of this applies in Utah if you have a permit from any State or County.
    To add to Kevin's explanation of UT law regarding open carry without a permit issued by any State or County:

    Double action Revolver = no round in the chamber under the hammer AND no round in the next cylinder opening.

    Single action only revolver = no round under the hammer. Action 1 = Cock - Action 2 = pull trigger.

    And, avoidance of those pesky GFSZ areas.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
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    Something else to consider with MN vs UT non-resident permits is the requirement for MN renewal that you take another course for each renewal. This is not required for the UT non-resident permit. Another added expense for the MN non-resident permit.

    I will look into the AZ permit. I was not previously aware of the changes until Greg brought it to my attention recently.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by professor gun View Post
    I will look into the AZ permit. I was not previously aware of the changes until Greg brought it to my attention recently.
    I wasn't aware of it either until a few days before your class.



    BTW, Professor Gun is a handgun instructor in the La Crosse area and is very good. My accuracy improved with a little instruction to get me away from a previous instructors 'my way is the only way' techniques.

    I would label Professor Gun a true self-defense instructor, in every sense. Not just a firearm instructor. http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Pro...36054769762733

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    'Sprocket you miss the point of my post. Of course there is a difference between reciprocity and recognition. Those states that will recognize a Wisconsin permit and those that Wisconsin will recognize can be determined by the writing of the pertinent statutes and in Wisconsin as ruled by the DoJ. Under the requirements of Act 35 the DoJ must publish a list of states that Wisconsin will recognize. For the most part it will be any state that requires a background check. Reciprocity on the other hand is an agreement between Wisconsin and individual states. A reciprocal agreement can be different than the fine letter of the law. Even if one feature of the MN CC law is that there be a requirement of live fire, that requirement could be waived for Wisconsin residents under a reciprocal agreement. Whether or not it will, remains to be seen. That is why it is too soon to draw conclusions. As it stands right now Minnesota, by virtue of its permit requirements, will not recognize a Wisconsin permit and Wisconsin will not recognize permits from states that do not require a background check (unless the applicant volunteered to a background check). Such requirements could be waived under reciprocity with individual states. Under Act 35 the DoJ has a specific time limit in which to issue a list of states that Wisconsin will recognize. The DoJ has no time limit for the reciprocity agreements.

    An example of what I am talking about is the former reciprocity agreement between MN and WI and IL concerning state income taxes. Even though the tax laws are very different between the states a person earning income in either state payed taxes under the tax laws of the state he/she resided in. Likewise, even though the permit requirements for CC in MN is different than WI, MN under a reciprocal agreement could recognize that a WI permit is valid in MN if the applicant met all WI requirements, in spite of the live fire requirement in MN.

    That is what I meant by "too soon to draw conclusions".

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    Regular Member littlewolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    To add to Kevin's explanation of UT law regarding open carry without a permit issued by any State or County:

    Double action Revolver = no round in the chamber under the hammer AND no round in the next cylinder opening.

    Single action only revolver = no round under the hammer. Action 1 = Cock - Action 2 = pull trigger.

    And, avoidance of those pesky GFSZ areas.
    That's gotta suck if you carry a Bond Snake Slayer !
    Owner Little Wolf Firearms , US ARMY RETIRED 101st Airborne & 84th DIV TRNG Small arms instructor.
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  15. #15
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    +! Captain Nemo.

    You laid out a well articulated case for a theoretical potential for a formal written reciprocity agreement between WI and MN. I personally believe that MN will not initially recognize a WI permit, but may, as you have pointed out, enter into some sort of reciprocity agreement that may take some time to negotiate. I also believe that at some point the Commissioner of Fish and Wildlife in Florida will eventually hash out an agreement with the Wisconsin Attorney General.

    You also make a very valid point that while the WI DOJ is under a statutory clock to publish a list of states whose permits WI will honor, no such clock exists for DOJ entering into and finalizing written formal reciprocity agreements with other states.
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    UT & AZ is a better combination.

    ...

    This is my main point. We send a message on the national level by which states we choose to do business with.

    Everyone in Wisconsin should abandon thier Minnesota and Florida permits. Or atleast do not renew them when they expire.

    Do business with states that bo a better job in honoring our Constitutional Rights.

    It's the patiotic thing to do.

    It's your duty.

    IMHO.
    Sending a message on the national level is precisely why I cannot recommend getting a Utah permit. Utah has changed their law recently requiring the submission of a resident permit, from those in shall issue states, to obtain a Utan non-resident permit. I find this policy a breach of privacy and a violation of equal treatment of applicants. Because Utah no longer shows respect to my rights of privacy and equal protections under the law I feel it is my duty, the patriotic thing to do, is no longer support them with my money. IMHO.

    I do believe in supporting those states that offer the best value in their permits but I also believe I should not need government permission to exercise my right of self defense. Until the right of self defense is universally recognized I feel forced to submit to licensing as required. With the considerable cost in obtaining a Minnesota permit (in both time and money) and the unacceptable terms of the Utah permit I feel I am left in a bind. My Utah permit is valid for a couple more years and I have seen a universal recognition bill get proposed in Minnesota before. It is my hope that Minnesota will pass their universal recognition bill into law before I feel the need to visit that state again. If that happens then the citizens of Wisconsin should no longer feel compelled to obtain the MN or UT permits. When it comes to leaving the Midwest for citizens of Wisconsin there may be a desire to still get a non-resident permit from one state or another. In that case the Arizona permit might be a very good choice.

    I believe that Captain Nemo has a very good point in taking a wait and see approach to this. Minnesota has an opportunity to expand recognition of out of state permits. Give them some time if you can. For those that already have MN permits it may be in your best interest to wait, even if that means allowing your permit to expire. Some states that lack recognition of many out of state permits will still allow lawful open carry. Take advantage of the open carry laws when traveling, especially if that means not needing to spend $60 on a permit that you'd rarely use.

    I will not tell people to do what I will not do myself. I already have a Utah permit so I will continue to use it so long as it remains valid. However, I will not renew it and cannot recommend that other obtain or renew a Utah permit. Given the expense in obtaining a permit recognized in MN I feel the best tactic is to wait as long as possible for MN to pass a universal recognition law before deciding what license to obtain. If the concern is carrying inside MN then it would seem the MN permit is an obvious choice.

    Brokensprocket did give the costs of obtaining the license from these states but left out the cost of the training, and/or any other documents one must obtain for the application. This can lead to a misleading total cost of ownership. If possible choose a trainer licensed by MN so that if you decide to obtain a MN permit then that option is open to you. It may mean spending a bit more on the training but saving on the fingerprinting costs since MN does not require fingerprints but UT does. MN requires only a photocopy of your state issued ID while UT wants a photocopy of your state issued ID card AND a passport style photo. The cost of the photo needs to be added in as well.

    Add the cost of fingerprinting (cost me $10) and the cost of the passport photo (about $15, IIRC) to the cost of getting the UT permit then it does not look like such a deal any more compared to the MN permit. I am assuming the training cost would be identical since I've seen most every trainer in the Midwest is licensed by both UT and MN.

    It appears that Arizona requires fingerprinting for their permit as well, one must add that cost when comparing the costs of obtaining a permit. The FL permit requires one submit a photo and fingerprints but the application cost of that permit is so high that I would consider that a permit of last resort, when no other permit will do. I have a Florida permit since at the time I had a small window to get the permit I needed for my travels. I did not have the time to seek training but I did have a DD-214. Given the renewal cost of the Florida permit approaches that of obtaining a permit from just about any other state I suspect I will not renew it.

  17. #17
    McX
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    now let me get this straight: You put the lime in the coconut and mix them both up...............

  18. #18
    Regular Member Mas49.56's Avatar
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    The Florida(7 years) permit is roughly $4.71 more per year than the Arizona(5 years) permit. Mine is a little less, because I took my own picture and went to the free weekly fingerprint day at the GulfBreeze police station.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    now let me get this straight: You put the lime in the coconut and mix them both up...............
    I said, "DOCTOR, is there nothing I can take?"

    I see I wrote quite a bit, let's see if I can boil it down a bit.

    The short story:
    Get your Wisconsin permit and wait it out. Things are changing fast so don't be in a hurry to waste your money on a permit you might not need.

    The slightly longer story:
    Minnesota, and a few other states, have had bills proposing extending the "privilege" to carry going from universal recognition on up to permitless carry. Expect these bills to become law in the next couple years. If you already have an out of state permit and/or don't plan on a whole lot of out of state travel in the near future, then just wait to see how this pans out. Not only are laws changing in other states the law in Wisconsin allows for reciprocity agreements to be made, this can extend recognition of the Wisconsin permit further. If you can wait on getting a permit for another state then it could mean considerable cost savings to do so.

    A wee bit longer story:
    Brokensprocket claims the AZ/UT non-resident permit combination is a better choice than the MN/FL non-resident permit combination since the cost of new AZ and UT permits is less than that of renewing the MN and FL permits. I say that may not be true because the costs for training, fingerprinting, photographs, and perhaps other costs were not taken into account. Mas49.56 adds to this by pointing out that the costs need to be spread over the time the permit is valid. The cost of the Utah permit can be especially misleading since they require many documents, and training specific to that state. The AZ, MN, and FL permits are much more flexible on what training they will recognize as valid which can lower costs significantly depending on what training you already have. The MN permit may actually be a better deal since they do not require fingerprints or photographs.

    For me the FL permit was actually cheaper than the UT permit since FL takes training documents like a DD-214 or hunter safety certificate, which cost me nothing since I had them already, as opposed to the $80 it took for my UT training. Again, with universal recognition and permitless carry laws becoming the norm the need for multiple out of state permits to carry a weapon as you travel might disappear real soon now. There may soon be no need to have any out of state permit to travel while armed.

    Getting back to the short story:
    Save your money and wait to see what happens. If you feel the need to get a non-resident permit then add up the costs carefully, you may find the MN permit to be quite inexpensive compared to the UT or FL permits. The AZ permit is quite inexpensive but does not have recognition in MN, I point this out since this seems to be a primary concern here.

    Then put the lime in the coconut and call me in the morning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mas49.56 View Post
    The Florida(7 years) permit is roughly $4.71 more per year than the Arizona(5 years) permit. Mine is a little less, because I took my own picture and went to the free weekly fingerprint day at the GulfBreeze police station.

    Until you get to renewal time. AZ is $43 renewal...FL is $107.

  21. #21
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    Until you get to renewal time. AZ is $43 renewal...FL is $107.
    Utah is $10 and a current passport sized photo....
    Dave
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    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    Utah is $10 and a current passport sized photo....
    It's $15 now.

    UT + AZ renewal combined is still cheaper than FL alone.
    Last edited by mrjam2jab; 09-04-2011 at 09:27 PM.

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    Another reason to wait and see.

    http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=7072

    Hearing Scheduled for H.R. 822, the National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Act of 2011

    Friday, September 09, 2011


    For months we have been reporting on a critically important bill: H.R. 822—the National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Act of 2011. This vital NRA-backed legislation, introduced earlier this year by Congressmen Cliff Stearns (R-Fla.) and Heath Shuler (D-N.C.) will enable millions of permit holders to exercise their right to self-defense while traveling outside their home states.
    ...
    If this law passes we could see no need for an out of state permit. I'm not sure I like this bill since it essentially endorses a state power to license a right but it does allow for every law abiding citizen to stop having to play "concealed carry Bingo" when they travel.

    There is also a bill in Minnesota for universal recognition. I believe it died this session in the Senate after being passed in the House but it will come back next session.

    http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?id=6829

    Universal Recognition:
    Currently, Minnesotans’ carry permits are only valid in fifteen states. Unfortunately, Minnesota’s Department of Public Safety has not sought out any additional reciprocity agreements. By adding the proposed language, Minnesota will recognize every state that offers a carry permit and drastically improve Minnesotans’ abilities to carry in other states. The proposed language would also require Minnesota’s Department of Public Safety to enter in to reciprocity agreements.
    Just wait and see on what comes of these bills if you can.

  24. #24
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Arizona Permit

    Applied by mail on August 9, 2011

    Permit arrived today, September 16, 2011
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    Applied by mail on August 9, 2011

    Permit arrived today, September 16, 2011

    That is the longest time I have seen yet. Must be completely inundated with applications...maybe I should stop pushing the AZ permit for awhile.

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