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Thread: Letter to Senator/Representative regarding MD training

  1. #1
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Letter to Senator/Representative regarding MD training

    Let's nip this in bud.

    Representative xxx,

    Rumblings are coming out of the DOJ regarding the online firearm training offered by the MD State Police. Act 35 says:


    "175.60(4)(a)(1)(c) A firearms safety or training course that is available to the
    public and is offered by a law enforcement agency
    or, if the course
    is taught by an instructor who is certified by a national or state
    organization that certifies firearms instructors or by the department,
    by a technical college, a college or a university, a private or
    public institution or organization, or a firearms training school."

    http://www.mdgunsafety.com/

    Welcome to the Maryland Police Training Commission Firearms Safety Training Site.
    Completion of this Firearms Safety Training course will satisfy one of the requirements for firearms ownership under Maryland law. You must consult Maryland and federal law for the remaining requirements for legal possession and ownership of a firearm."


    Can you please remind them of the part above and "‎175.60(2)(b) The department may not impose conditions, limitations, or requirements that are not expressly provided for in this section on the issuance, scope, effect, or content of a license."



    If they do NOT accept the MD training, I might be forced to use "‎175.60(14m) APPEALS TO THE CIRCUIT COURT. (a) An individual
    aggrieved by any action by the department denying an application
    for, or suspending or revoking, a license under this section, may
    appeal directly to the circuit court of the county in which the individual
    resides without regard to whether the individual has sought
    review under the process established in sub. (14g).
    (b) To begin an appeal under this subsection, the aggrieved
    individual shall file a petition for review with the clerk of the
    applicable circuit court within 30 days of receiving notice of
    denial of an application for a license or of suspension or revocation
    of a license. The petition shall state the substance of the
    department’s action from which the individual is appealing and
    the grounds upon which the individual believes the department’s
    action to be improper. The petition may include a copy of any
    records or documents that are relevant to the grounds upon which
    the individual believes the department’s action to be improper.
    (c) A copy of the petition shall be served upon the department
    either personally or by registered or certified mail within 5 days
    after the individual files his or her petition under par. (b).
    (d) The department shall file an answer within 15 days after
    being served with the petition under par. (c). The answer shall
    include a brief statement of the actions taken by the department.
    The department shall include with the answer when filed a copy
    of any documents or records on which the department based its
    action.
    (e) The court shall review the petition, the answer, and any
    records or documents submitted with the petition or the answer.
    The review under this paragraph shall be conducted by the court
    without a jury but the court may schedule a hearing and take testimony.
    (f) The court shall reverse the department’s action if the court
    finds any of the following:
    1. That the department failed to follow any procedure, or take
    any action, prescribed under this section.
    2. That the department erroneously interpreted a provision of
    law and a correct interpretation compels a different action.
    3. That the department’s action depends on a finding of fact
    that is not supported by substantial evidence in the record.
    4. a. If the appeal is regarding a denial, that the denial was
    based on factors other than the factors under sub. (3).
    b. If the appeal is regarding a suspension or revocation, that
    the suspension or revocation was based on criteria other than those
    under sub. (14) (a) or (am).
    (g) 1. The court’s decision shall provide whatever relief is
    appropriate regardless of the original form of the petition.
    2. If the court reverses the department’s action, the court may
    order the department to pay the aggrieved individual all court
    costs and reasonable attorney fees."

    I hope I am over reacting but we need this decided shortly. They (DOJ) are supposed to publish the rules 9/1.


    Thanks!

    --
    Paul L Fisher
    Last edited by paul@paul-fisher.com; 08-28-2011 at 09:58 PM. Reason: Fix formatting.

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    Perfect

    May we use this as a form letter to our assy reps as well? lots of GREAT research and clarification there...

  3. #3
    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    So, if the MD training isnt accepted, do we march on the capital square chanting, 'Shame, Shame, Shame' or some other such nonsense? :-)

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    "Recall Walker" should suffice.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    "Recall Walker" should suffice.
    and why would one do that?

  6. #6
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Constitutional Carry.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    We got 99% of what we wanted. Next time we'll get the rest.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Oh yah? Still waiting for my pony...

    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    If we use the hunter safety course to get the permit, we can then take any course we wish to take and the DOJ has nothing to say about it.

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Oh yah? Still waiting for my pony...

    Talk to your parents.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

  11. #11
    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrclen View Post
    If we use the hunter safety course to get the permit, we can then take any course we wish to take and the DOJ has nothing to say about it.
    Id think that if it meets the criteria in the statute, the DOJ would have to accept it as training...regardless...!

  12. #12
    Regular Member Da Po-lock's Avatar
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    Why is this being addressed ? Have there been rumors of the DOJ will deny MD online training ?

    I fully plan on holding the DOJ's feet to the fire on the letter of the law by submitting MY MD training for my permit.
    If they do I SURELY will appeal it.

    ........Da Po-lock
    Any one of you lily livered, flea bitten, bow legged varmints care to slap leather with me?

    A.S.N.F.
    A Son NEVER Forgets

  13. #13
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by handyman View Post
    Yup, keep hounding the DOJ. Not a very smart plan.
    **** you! They work for me. They need to follow the law.

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Anyone Got That "Troll Spray"?

    The troll(s) has been banned how many times under how many screen names? Get out the super size "Troll Spray".
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

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    Quote Originally Posted by handyman View Post
    Yup, keep hounding the DOJ. Not a very smart plan.


    When your hound is named Democracy, you have a duty to sic it on government.

    Sending polite, informative letters to elected officials and bureaucrats telling them what you want is American, not "hounding."

    DOJ has said that it will decide whether on-line training qualifies. That means DOJ staff think there's a gray area there that needs interpretation. DOJ's decision regarding on-line training will also dictate whether DOJ sets criteria for other types of training. If DOJ decides it has the authority to disqualify MD, chances are DOJ will exercise that authority to set other criteria for other training.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oak1971 View Post
    We got 99% of what we wanted. Next time we'll get the rest.
    You may have gotten 99% of what you wanted, but what we "Got" is 0% of true "Constitutional Carry".

    The only thing I thought we got from my list of wants (Constitutional Carry) was the ability to open carry in a vehicle loaded and holstered on the hip without a permit... now even that seems to be in question...

    Oh wait, we CAN legally carry loaded and holstered on the hip in a vehilce and also within 1000 ft of a school (and other things).... all we need to do is jump through their hoops and get the (STINKIN) PERMIT.... and we only had to wait 4 MONTHS to do it...

    99% of a stinky pile, still stinks...

    Just sayin...

    Outdoorsman1
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 08-29-2011 at 09:56 AM.
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

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    Founder's Club Member springfield 1911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by handyman View Post
    Yup, keep hounding the DOJ. Not a very smart plan.
    I'm sorry handyman, But the founders set up our Gov. to be empowered of the people by the people and for the people. It's been a long long time since the people have had a say and we the people have a lot to say and it is about time we start saying it. We need to take back our country and give it back to the men and women on the street.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJQ34JTqk0I

    In the ashes burns an ember of liberty, We are the fuel to ignite the ember into a flame of liberty.

    The embodiment of our founding fathers will not be found in one man , But in Many.

    ****** give it away ( Our rights ) prostitutes sell it (Mandated training).

  18. #18
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by springfield 1911 View Post
    I'm sorry handyman, But the founders set up our Gov. to be empowered of the people by the people and for the people. It's been a long long time since the people have had a say and we the people have a lot to say and it is about time we start saying it. We need to take back our country and give it back to the men and women on the street.
    I caved in and accepted the restrictions to my rights. I'll be damned if I let them take one more inch. The law was written as written for a reason. We cannot tolerate them disobeying it.

  19. #19
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    I caved in and accepted the restrictions to my rights. I'll be damned if I let them take one more inch. The law was written as written for a reason. We cannot tolerate them disobeying it.
    Never give up, never surrender. They've pissed on us for far too long. If they are no willing to listen to We The People, then they are no longer servants to us and must be removed from office.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  20. #20
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    I believe some people keep arguing that the MD online course isn't offered by a police agency.

    http://www.mdsp.org/downloads/licensing_faq.pdf page 5

    How do I find out where to take the Certified Firearms Training Course?A. The Certified Firearms Training Course is a video that can be viewed at
    some regulated firearms dealers stores/place of business or you can go
    through the following website www.mdgunsafety.com to locate times,
    dates, and locations where the training course is offered. Once on the
    website, click on “Schedule of Courses” under the Site Menu and a
    calendar and list of locations and times will be displayed where the
    Certified Firearms Training Course is offered. The Certified Firearms
    Training Course is administered by the Maryland Police Training
    Commission.
    It sound to me like THEY believe they are police training.

  21. #21
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by handyman View Post
    So cite a legitimate source that says the DOJ is not obeying the law. Rumors are not legitimate.
    Their FAQ says that they don't know if online only is acceptable. I am trying to nip this in the bud so that when they issue the rules on 11/1, the answer is correct. Please read my letter, it says there are 'rumblings'. I will only bring suit if I am denied a permit because I sent in the MD course completion.

    The DOJ might do the right thing, I'm just being proactive.

    Page 9 and 10 http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cib/..._questions.pdf

    Will an on-line training course satisfy the requirements to obtain a concealed carry permit?The Department of Justice is aware that some vendors and others have made public statements that on-line courses and other types of training will satisfy the requirements of the law. We are currently studying that issue and will be promulgating administrative rules that will address the type and manner of training that will be sufficient. We anticipate that those rules will be in place prior to November 1, 2011. It is expected that a variety of existing training programs will be sufficient; however, until the rules are in place, no vendors can guarantee that their training will qualify.
    Since they are 'studying the issue', I am trying to help them make the right decision.
    Last edited by paul@paul-fisher.com; 08-29-2011 at 10:31 AM. Reason: Provided link.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by handyman View Post
    Going from nothing to as you put it 99 percent is extremely satisfying. Wisconsin will not see the constitutional carry for a long, long time.
    "... 99 percent..." is NOT how I put it... I was quoting from another post.....

    But, I guess if...

    handyman, logables, santana, spartacus, and whoever else the troll has or will call himself, feels that "99 percent is extremely satisfying", well then...

    My orginal point that 99% of a stinky pile still stinks" is re-inforced by the troll thinking the opposite....

    Thanks handyman for helping to prove my point....

    Outdoorsman1
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

    George Cecil (1891–1970) American advertising copywriter

    Outdoorsman1
    Member: Wisconsin Carry Inc.
    Member: Silver Lake Sportsmans Club
    Wisconsin C.C.W. License Holder
    Utah State Permit Holder.
    Arizona State Permit Holder.

  23. #23
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Just got this back:

    Thanks, Paul.

    I have a message into DOJ.

    Luke Bacher
    Legislative Assistant
    State Representative Tyler August
    608-266-1190
    luke.bacher@legis.wi.gov





    http://repaugust.com

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Thanks For The Letter Paul!

    Yes, we didn't get Constitutional Carry but as you all have stated: We don't give up any rights. No more sitting around waiting for the "elected ones" to do the right thing. We all know that will never happen. Take the fight to them and let them know we are the People.

    On another note I see the "Handyman", err..logables, Stalkinghorse, Spatacus, etc...has been removed, once again from this site. Thanks! Keep the trolls out.

    Carry On!
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

  25. #25
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    I believe some people keep arguing that the MD online course isn't offered by a police agency.

    http://www.mdsp.org/downloads/licensing_faq.pdf page 5



    It sound to me like THEY believe they are police training.
    Maryland Police Training Commission in not a Law ENFORCEMENT Agency.

    Maryland Police Training Commission is just one division of Maryland Department of Public Safety and Correctional Services (DPSCS). While another division like Maryland Division of Parole and Probation could possibly see thought of a law enforcemtent, the Maryland Police Training Commission is not a Law Enforcement Agency.

    Edited to Add: I firmly believe that the WI-DOJ should accept the MD-Firearm Training Certificates, but following the letter of the law, they 'might' not.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 08-29-2011 at 01:52 PM.

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