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Thread: 'Innocent of Instigation' question.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    'Innocent of Instigation' question.

    The use of non-lethal force for self-defense is legal, right?

    So, if you see someone being minorly assualted and you went to defend that person after which point the assualt elevated to threat of death or great bodily harm and you resonded with deadly force, are you not innocent of instegation because you attempted to defend someone else?

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Here is the applicable Statute
    939.48 Self−defense and defense of others
    (4) A person is privileged to defend a 3rd person from real or
    apparent unlawful interference by another under the same conditions and by the same means as those under and by which the person is privileged to defend himself or herself from real or apparent
    unlawful interference, provided that the person reasonably
    believes that the facts are such that the 3rd person would be privileged to act in self−defense and that the personís intervention is
    necessary for the protection of the 3rd person

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    Here is the applicable Statute
    Thank you.

  4. #4
    McX
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    the innocent of instigation thing works, but makes one appear weak, 3rd party defense is a grey area to me; what is transpiring? is it an even match? does one party maybe have it coming? Is it a crimal offense event? My general rule of thumb is my gun exists to protect me, if others want protection they should carry their own gun. NO PHONE BOOTHING!*

    * i define phone boothing as an individual starting a conflict, or participating in it, and ducking behind the carrier to seek protection, forcing the carrier into the conflict.
    Last edited by McX; 08-31-2011 at 08:57 AM.

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    Regular Member Lurchiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    the innocent of instigation thing works, but makes one appear weak, 3rd party defense is a grey area to me; what is transpiring? is it an even match? does one party maybe have it coming? Is it a crimal offense event? My general rule of thumb is my gun exists to protect me, if others want protection they should carry their own gun. NO PHONE BOOTHING!*

    * i define phone boothing as an individual starting a conflict, or participating in it, and ducking behind the carrier to seek protection, forcing the carrier into the conflict.
    Damn straight, citizen...NOT in my phone-booth!!!

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    Bale da Hay

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    Full long let him look about him;
    For little he knows where a foe may lurk,
    And sit in the seats within.

    Havamal (Bellows translation)

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    If you are armed at the time & you don't know the person being assaulted...stay out of it...call the cops even let the scum bag that's hurting the other person know that your calling the cops.....but stay out of it...
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    the innocent of instigation thing works, but makes one appear weak, 3rd party defense is a grey area to me; what is transpiring? is it an even match? does one party maybe have it coming? Is it a crimal offense event? My general rule of thumb is my gun exists to protect me, if others want protection they should carry their own gun. NO PHONE BOOTHING!*

    * i define phone boothing as an individual starting a conflict, or participating in it, and ducking behind the carrier to seek protection, forcing the carrier into the conflict.
    Well, lets say you see man who has the arm of a woman and is trying to force her in a direction which she is resisting. You step in to help the woman get away and the man then pulls a knife or gun.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GLOCK21GB View Post
    If you are armed at the time & you don't know the person being assaulted...stay out of it...call the cops even let the scum bag that's hurting the other person know that your calling the cops.....but stay out of it...
    Thank you, but I am not asking for advice. I am asking what the legal consequences could be. Not helping someone, especially a child or a female, would go against every fiber of my being.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 08-31-2011 at 01:11 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    According to Wi Law if you are Armed OC / CCW you must be a RELUCTANT PARTICIPANT ....rushing in to save an unknown person potentially being assaulted REGARDLESS of age or gender is an Aggressive move. If you do the wrong thing you will be spending time in Jail. If you do the right thing you might get sued... I hope that fiber your talking about has lot's of Money for a lawyer & can afford losing it's job when it goes to jail... Call 911, be a witness..We are not cops, we should not act like them...

    Defending Family or Friends is different....Perfect strangers >>Tread carefully
    Last edited by GLOCK21GB; 08-31-2011 at 02:01 PM.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    Regular Member bluehighways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Well, lets say you see man who has the arm of a woman and is trying to force her in a direction which she is resisting. You step in to help the woman get away and the man then pulls a knife or gun.
    If I saw a woman in distress of this magnitude I'd call the cops immediately then go help her. If she's being forced to go somewhere against her will it qualifies as more than a minor incident.

    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Thank you, but I am not asking for advice. I am asking what the legal consequences could be. Not helping someone, especially a child or a female, would go against every fiber of my being.
    If it's a child that's being assaulted / kidnapped all bets are off. They cannot defend themselves.


    Quote Originally Posted by GLOCK21GB View Post
    According to Wi Law if you are Armed OC / CCW you must be a RELUCTANT PARTICIPANT ....rushing in to save an unknown person potentially being assaulted REGARDLESS of age or gender is an Aggressive move. If you do the wrong thing you will be spending time in Jail. If you do the right thing you might get sued... I hope that fiber your talking about has lot's of Money for a lawyer & can afford losing it's job when it goes to jail... Call 911, be a witness..We are not cops, we should not act like them...

    Defending Family or Friends is different....Perfect strangers >>Tread carefully
    This is good advice. We are not cops and should not act like them. Police, DA's and judges look very unkindly on civilians that do. There is a line, however that must be drawn between staying out of it and helping someone who cannot help themselves. This line is different for everyone. If you go into a situation to help someone you've just gotten yourself involved and could be held liable if things go bad. If you draw your gun for any reason after involving yourself in said situation, you could find yourself in a legal nightmare. Even if no shots are fired and you ultimately removed the victim(s) from harm.

    Conversely, if you witness something as grave as an assault / kidnapping on a woman or child and choose not to involve yourself in any way other than calling the cops and waiting to fill out a witness statement, you are legally exempt of any liability due to non-involvement. You will, however have to live the rest of your life knowing you had a chance to prevent that assault / kidnapping from taking place while you stood idly by, waiting for the cops to show up, due to fear of legal repercussions.
    "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln

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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    The law regarding protecting another person isn't that complex. You simply need to have a reasonable belief that under the circumstances the other person is privileged to act in their own defense, and a reasonable believe that your intervention is necessary to protect that person. Then you are privileged to use the same amount of force that other person would entitled to use.

    A "reasonable belief" means that "a person of ordinary intelligence and prudence in the same situation would see it the same way."

    You're allowed to make mistakes, as long as it's a mistake that pretty much anyone would make. So if you heard a woman convincingly screaming, "Help! Police! Rape!" and you ran over and clobbered the guy only to learn that they were just acting out some fantasy scenario you ought be ok for reacting the way you did. On the other hand, if you heard the same thing, ran over, and found the woman had pepper sprayed the guy and was now kicking the crap out of him on the ground you're probably not going to get an automatic free pass to throw in a few stomps of your own.
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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    of course I am not saying that..if I saw a little kid or a Man/Woman getting raped, beaten , stabbed or kidnapped I would not act in his or her defense because I would more than likely..just saying..we have to look at the totality of circumstances, etc. everyone should act as a good sumaritian if given the chance but ................ is it worth sitting in prison for 10-20 ? or being sued now ya get to live the rest of your life in a card board box.... some times being the nice guy can really suck
    Last edited by GLOCK21GB; 08-31-2011 at 05:40 PM.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    The easy cases don't concern me too much. But there are endless "gray" or borderline scenarios a person could face. Get-involved/don't-get-involved situations are similar to shoot/don't shoot scenarios. It takes a LOT of discretion and quick thinking to make a decision in those cases, and it's not easy to do under stress and pressure.
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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    At the very beginning of his administration, Walker introduced major tort reform laws and they got passed. Doesn't this change the landscape of civil lawsuits in cases of self-defense?

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    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Well, lets say you see man who has the arm of a woman and is trying to force her in a direction which she is resisting. You step in to help the woman get away and the man then pulls a knife or gun.
    Hell, the WOMAN might pull a knife on you. They could be husband and wife having a "moment". There have been many instances of an officer responding to a domestic dispute and restraining the husband, only to be attacked by the wife! Unless there is obvious injury-causing violence being committed, my feeling is that it's better to be a good witness and dial 911.
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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GLOCK21GB View Post
    According to Wi Law if you are Armed OC / CCW you must be a RELUCTANT PARTICIPANT ....rushing in to save an unknown person potentially being assaulted REGARDLESS of age or gender is an Aggressive move. If you do the wrong thing you will be spending time in Jail. If you do the right thing you might get sued... I hope that fiber your talking about has lot's of Money for a lawyer & can afford losing it's job when it goes to jail... Call 911, be a witness..We are not cops, we should not act like them...

    Defending Family or Friends is different....Perfect strangers >>Tread carefully
    Here is the applicable Statute
    939.48 Self−defense and defense of others
    (4) A person is privileged to defend a 3rd person from real or
    apparent unlawful interference by another under the same conditions and by the same means as those under and by which the person is privileged to defend himself or herself from real or apparent
    unlawful interference, provided that the person reasonably
    believes that the facts are such that the 3rd person would be privileged to act in self−defense and that the personís intervention is
    necessary for the protection of the 3rd person

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX
    the innocent of instigation thing works, but makes one appear weak
    I disagree.
    I think it makes one appear calm & rational & level-headed & noncombative.

    The people I've known with whom you would least want to get into a fight (that is, have them against you) are also the ones who know the damage they can do, and don't need to prove it.

    The hotmouthed little bantam roosters who strut & make lots of noise & provoke fights over nothing do it because they don't have any real power. They think fighting makes them strong, or cool, or big, or whatever the current slang is.

    Most carriers I've met fall into the first category.
    We all know the damage firearms can do. We don't need to prove it to every little rooster who wants an ego boost from fighting.

    What does it hurt me to ignore an insult, or invitation to 'step outside'? (Not that it happens to women all that often, no.) I don't care what some random insecure prig on the street thinks of me.
    "No thanks, I'm not interested" goes a long way. Confuses them, too.

    Heck, if I have to apologize for something I didn't do, that's better than getting into a fight & someone (probably them) ending up hurt.

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    Unless you know the relationship between the 3rd parties who are struggling, then you should be very cautious about it. One could be an UNDERCOVER COP and he is trying to maintain his cover with a drug thug. If you pull your gun and shoot him you will be going away for a very long time. DA's just hate it when you kill one of their LEOs, undercover or not. There are other situations that would be stranger than fiction but have happened before. My gun exists to protect me and my family. I don't intend to protect 3rd parties unless WI laws are strengthened in this regard.

  19. #19
    McX
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Well, lets say you see man who has the arm of a woman and is trying to force her in a direction which she is resisting. You step in to help the woman get away and the man then pulls a knife or gun.
    step in?! i doubt it! my cell phone can call 911. i have no police authority, no duty to protect, nothing. i carry a gun because i cant carry a cop, but for the minute details, input, and aid in my decision making process i will have to learn to carry Auric.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Lurchiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GLOCK21GB View Post
    If you are armed at the time & you don't know the person being assaulted...stay out of it...call the cops even let the scum bag that's hurting the other person know that your calling the cops.....but stay out of it...
    Remember the 3 R's...Recon(before you act), Report(what you find), and Return(With your LIFE)!!!
    Bale da Hay

    "Have you Spanked a leftist today; it's the Right thing to do!!!"


    Within the gates before a man shall go,
    (Fully warily let him watch,)
    Full long let him look about him;
    For little he knows where a foe may lurk,
    And sit in the seats within.

    Havamal (Bellows translation)

  21. #21
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    step in?! i doubt it! my cell phone can call 911. i have no police authority, no duty to protect, nothing. i carry a gun because i cant carry a cop, but for the minute details, input, and aid in my decision making process i will have to learn to carry Auric.
    I apologize for not offering a titanium airweight or plastic frame model of myself.
    A. Gold

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  22. #22
    McX
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    I apologize for not offering a titanium airweight or plastic frame model of myself.
    are you available in PolyTechnoMetal Alloy? or just the standard T100 model?

  23. #23
    Regular Member Lurchiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    I apologize for not offering a titanium airweight or plastic frame model of myself.
    Pink...???
    Attachment 6834 ...
    Bale da Hay

    "Have you Spanked a leftist today; it's the Right thing to do!!!"


    Within the gates before a man shall go,
    (Fully warily let him watch,)
    Full long let him look about him;
    For little he knows where a foe may lurk,
    And sit in the seats within.

    Havamal (Bellows translation)

  24. #24
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    Protecting a 3rd party. Unless you know the situation from the start. Could be very interisting for you or the party your thinking about protecting.

    Many Leo has been attack by the party they thought they should protect when that party saw the attack on their attacker as afront to the boy freind husband ect.

    If you don't know whats started it (unless some one is just shooting/knifing people ect) I would stay out of it.

    Actions and words of the offender well have a huge bearing on how one would act.

    So many differant situations not many andswers.

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