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Thread: Just to be clear. If you are contacted by police for Open Carry...

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Just to be clear. If you are contacted by police for Open Carry...

    Just to be clear. If you are contacted by police for Open Carry, and they ask for ID. If they dont say they dont have RAS, or are not detaining you...

    Can you or can you not just walk away? Yes / No
    Do you have to show them ID? Yes / No
    Do you even have to tell them your name? Yes / No



    If you are stopped should you immediatly ask if you are being detained or arrested. If they say no should you tell them to have a pleasant day and attempt to leave. After all they did not stop you to find out how your day is going. If they say they need to talk with you should you ask am I being detained or arrested and if not attempt to leave. If they ask for ID, (I'll leave this to the Pro's) I know you dont have to show ID if they are not detaining or arresting you, I am still not sure if you have to give them your name and address? If they disarm you, I have seen posted here by many who are not lawyers that you should clearly state that you object to them siezing your firearm and do not give them permission to take it... No matter what be sure to turn on your recorder before they approach you if you see them coming. I have told my wife to start recording also and to stay in front of the officer in plain view so she is not "obstructing" or making the copy with a gun and bullet proof vest nervous. The recorder will have a better chance of picking up audio that way.

    More new members that need to know, we already see some posting that they are saying things that can be construed as intimidation, talking about asking for permission to carry in businesses. Might as well leave some info for them so that when they are contacted they will know what to do, and how to handle the police.


    IANAL
    Last edited by amzbrady; 09-01-2011 at 02:49 AM.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

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    You might be a little clearer than you want.

    Telling readers what to do in a legal context is, as I understand it, giving legal advice.

    This is why I try to pass along how I plan to act/plan to say, rather than telling others what actions to take/what to say.

    Also, it helps new readers grasp the underlying principles about the 4th and 5th Amendment if you provide cites, quotes, links, and so forth. In effect, giving them stuff they can read to understand the rules and plan their own tactics. This has the additional benefit of introducing them to those rights.
    Last edited by Citizen; 09-01-2011 at 02:40 AM.

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    You might be a little clearer than you want.

    Telling readers what to do in a legal context is, as I understand it, giving legal advice.

    This is why I try to pass along how I plan to act/plan to say, rather than telling others what actions to take/what to say.

    Also, it helps new readers grasp the underlying principles about the 4th and 5th Amendment if you provide cites, quotes, links, and so forth. In effect, giving them stuff they can read to understand the rules and plan their own tactics. This has the additional benefit of introducing them to those rights.
    True, changed, I shouldnt be so clear.
    Last edited by amzbrady; 09-01-2011 at 02:48 AM.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post

    .......Do you even have to tell them your name? Yes / No.....

    ....I know you dont have to show ID if they are not detaining or arresting you, I am still not sure if you have to give them your name and address?....
    If you are operating a motor vehicle then you must provide your government permission slip if asked.

    Assuming you are just walking down the street or whatever you only have to identify yourself if the cop needs to write a citation. During a "casual encounter" you can refuse to provide your name.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    If you're not operanting a motor vehicle you don't need your driver's license on you. You are not required to carry ID on your person. If you're open carrying and not in your vehicle, you're not required to carry your CPL on your person.

    If you ever get the chance to OC without any ID on you, do it. If you get stopped by the police, (which I have under these circumstances) make sure to get a good look at their face/faces. They don't seem to know what to do.

    This isn't about being confrontational with them, just about being left alone.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpyderTattoo View Post
    If you're not operanting a motor vehicle you don't need your driver's license on you. You are not required to carry ID on your person. If you're open carrying and not in your vehicle, you're not required to carry your CPL on your person.

    If you ever get the chance to OC without any ID on you, do it. If you get stopped by the police, (which I have under these circumstances) make sure to get a good look at their face/faces. They don't seem to know what to do.

    This isn't about being confrontational with them, just about being left alone.
    +1 , it is priceless seeing the look on their face. And it is about simply being left alone.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    they did not stop you to find out how your day is going. If they say they need to talk with you should you ask am I being detained or arrested and if not attempt to leave. If they ask for ID, (I'll leave this to the Pro's) I know you dont have to show ID if they are not detaining or arresting you, I am still not sure if you have to give them your name and address? If they disarm you, I have seen posted here by many who are not lawyers that you should clearly state that you object to them siezing your firearm and do not give them permission to take it... No matter what be sure to turn on your recorder before they approach you if you see them coming. I have told my wife to start recording also and to stay in front of the officer in plain view so she is not "obstructing" or making the copy with a gun and bullet proof vest nervous. The recorder will have a better chance of picking up audio that way.
    You should probably note that this is exclusive to Washington state. There are in fact states where they don't have to arrest you to demand you identify yourself (some even require you produce actual ID). Refusing to do so in those states is indeed illegal. Not everyone who reads and comments on the Washington forum is from Washington, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    IANAL
    Then you shouldn't give legal advice in an authoritative tone.

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    You should probably note that this is exclusive to Washington state. There are in fact states where they don't have to arrest you to demand you identify yourself (some even require you produce actual ID). Refusing to do so in those states is indeed illegal. Not everyone who reads and comments on the Washington forum is from Washington, after all.



    Then you shouldn't give legal advice in an authoritative tone.
    Can you name a state which LEGALLY requires you to carry ID when not engaged in enumerated activities such as driving or carrying a firearm?

    Ohio has NO requirement for ID unless you're operating a motor vehicle or carrying a CONCEALED handgun, and possibly a few other circumstances.

    I can open carry a handgun with no identification AT ALL.

    I may be required to VERBALLY provide ID if DETAINED. That's why my lawyer is fanatical about the first thing out of your mouth (other than required notification if carry concealed) being "Officer, am I free to leave?" If the answer is "no", ID yourself if necessary, but answer NO questions and volunteer NO information without an attorney present.

    Cops don't involuntarily stop you for YOUR benefit.

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    Then you shouldn't give legal advice in an authoritative tone.
    He didn't. It was more of a ramble.

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    You should probably note that this is exclusive to Washington state. There are in fact states where they don't have to arrest you to demand you identify yourself (some even require you produce actual ID). Refusing to do so in those states is indeed illegal. Not everyone who reads and comments on the Washington forum is from Washington, after all.

    Attachment 6832

    Then you shouldn't give legal advice in an authoritative tone.
    Attachment 6833

    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    He didn't. It was more of a ramble.
    Bingo,
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

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    "Assuming you are just walking down the street or whatever you only have to identify yourself if the cop needs to write a citation. During a "casual encounter" you can refuse to provide your name."

    Who makes the determination on whether it is a "casual encounter" or RAS based??

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    [QUOTE=Lovenox;1603272Who makes the determination on whether it is a "casual encounter" or RAS based??[/QUOTE]

    That's a good question.

    The LEO is asking for information. You kindly refuse to comply and attempt to leave. His reaction to that choice would speak volumes and rapidly clear up matters. Just make sure your jury cam is on...
    Freedom can never be lost, only given away by ignorance, by choice, or at the point of a gun. Here in America we can still choose.

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    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    the LEO makes that determination, until it is clear you are being cited or detained you may decline to give identification verbally or materially, as I understand the RCWs.

    My intention if stopped and the encounter seems to be veering towards either a lecture or other unwarranted intrusion is to simply bid him "Good day" and begin to leave the "encounter".

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    Question Is It Legal To Record Audio Without All Persons Consent In Washington?

    Link: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.73.030

    I lived in Silverdale many years and my family still lives in the area. We were going to install a video/audio security system in our home but found out we could not record audio because of the "law" in Washington. What have I missed?

    On another note: If it is indeed legal to record audio in Washington state I highly suggest carrying a video/audio recorder to record everything.
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

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    You are missing the NOITCE that it is being recorded. On the other hand, "IF" one were to post obvious signs at conspicous locations that the recording of video and audio is used. you might be ok. IANAL ymmv

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovenox View Post
    "Assuming you are just walking down the street or whatever you only have to identify yourself if the cop needs to write a citation. During a "casual encounter" you can refuse to provide your name."

    Who makes the determination on whether it is a "casual encounter" or RAS based??
    Quote Originally Posted by Vitaeus View Post
    the LEO makes that determination, until it is clear you are being cited or detained you may decline to give identification verbally or materially, as I understand the RCWs.

    My intention if stopped and the encounter seems to be veering towards either a lecture or other unwarranted intrusion is to simply bid him "Good day" and begin to leave the "encounter".
    Thats why I would turn on the recorder and ask "Am I being detained or Arrested" If he says no, I would bid him a good day. "I said Good day sir!" If he says yes and does not have RAS then I will have now just started my case against him. If he doesnt answer, I would repeat my self until he does answer.

    Cop- "I need to see some ID"
    Me- "Am I being detained or Arrested?"
    Cop- "I need to see some ID"
    Me- "Am I being detained or Arrested?"
    Cop- "I just need you to show me some ID"
    Me- "I just need you to inform me if I am being detained or arrested"...
    Cop- "Look, dont make this difficult, let me see ID and if everything is ok, you can be on your way".
    Me- "Look, everything was OK, and I WAS on my way. You just stopped me without RAS and made this difficult. Am I being detained or arrested?"

    Those of you that have had this happen know how it plays out from there, which of course is different depending on how you continued. You either wind up complying, or standing up for your rights, depending on your situation. I have already discussed this with my wife that as long as I am not jepordizing their safety if this happens when we are out, that she may have to go home and get my bail money because I will not be backing down. She understands my convictions.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    It doesn't matter if the stop is a casual encounter or a RAS based detention. You still don't have to provide ID or identify yourself until the point where they are actually going to write you a citation. So... first question, "Are you detaining me?" Answer is yes. If they are pressing you for identification after that, the next statement you say should be, "You're going to have to write me a citation for the law you think I am breaking." Call their bluff.
    What if they say they will arrest you for obstruction, if you dont provide ID? They could also say I am going to write you a citation so I need your ID, then run it and not write up anything, just using that as a ploy to get you to comply. Then you are ID'd, They are tricky that way.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    What if they say they will arrest you for obstruction, if you dont provide ID? They could also say I am going to write you a citation so I need your ID, then run it and not write up anything, just using that as a ploy to get you to comply. Then you are ID'd, They are tricky that way.
    You could ask them what the citation was for, and make them answer....if your recording, this would be good to have on tape. It seems like at this point you are being detained and your 4th case is begun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    Then you shouldn't give legal advice in an authoritative tone.
    Couldn't this ^^^^ statement be construed as "legal advice" in one form or another??? :P

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    well,,,

    The very best police stops,
    begin with the cop saying,
    i need to talk to you because,
    you are carrying a gun!

    The cop has admitted that he has no RAS of a crime,
    he has admitted that you are not suspected of a crime,
    the cop has admitted that he has no authority to detain you!

    Thant him for his concern.
    Say No Thank You, turn and walk away!

    IANAL, but this work, as it should, every time!
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    You should probably note that this is exclusive to Washington state. There are in fact states where they don't have to arrest you to demand you identify yourself (some even require you produce actual ID). Refusing to do so in those states is indeed illegal. Not everyone who reads and comments on the Washington forum is from Washington, after all.
    Cite? There are no states that require you to carry ID (unless engaging in certain activities like driving), there are some that require you to identify yourself. Like Nevada, hence Hibbel vs. Nevada. They still have to have PC or RAS, and in the judges own ruling if identifying yourself may incriminate you may have a case for it violating your 5th. Another example of courts watering down our rights and furthering the power of the state.

    California's requirement to carry ID was struck down. Kolender vs Lawson.

    Me: Am I being arrested? If yes, can you state the PC or Ras? If yes total cooperation, if no, then I will tell them I won't physically resist but do not consent to the arrest.

    If no (to arrest), Am I being detained? If yes, can you state PC or RAS? If yes, again cooperation, if it is a valid statement. IF not, I say, 'I do not consent and will be walking away, if you choose to arrest me I do not consent but will not resist.' If they say nothing I walk away. IF they arrest me I sue them.

    I will not tolerate "badgering" by police anymore. If they make it clear I am not free to leave, my mouth is shut.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Cite? There are no states that require you to carry ID (unless engaging in certain activities like driving), there are some that require you to identify yourself. Like Nevada, hence Hibbel vs. Nevada. They still have to have PC or RAS, and in the judges own ruling if identifying yourself may incriminate you may have a case for it violating your 5th. Another example of courts watering down our rights and furthering the power of the state.

    California's requirement to carry ID was struck down. Kolender vs Lawson.

    Me: Am I being arrested? If yes, can you state the PC or Ras? If yes total cooperation, if no, then I will tell them I won't physically resist but do not consent to the arrest.

    If no (to arrest), Am I being detained? If yes, can you state PC or RAS? If yes, again cooperation, if it is a valid statement. IF not, I say, 'I do not consent and will be walking away, if you choose to arrest me I do not consent but will not resist.' If they say nothing I walk away. IF they arrest me I sue them.

    I will not tolerate "badgering" by police anymore. If they make it clear I am not free to leave, my mouth is shut.
    There is no obligation of a law enforcement officer to give you either probable cause or articulable suspicion at the time of arrest or detainment. They can arrest you without comment and take you to the jail. They can then file the paperwork for the charge. Keep in mind the prosecuting attorney can modify the charge or add to the charge.

    Now, nearly officer likes to exercise their training (i.e. power) to ask you questions to get you to incriminate themselves and they may or may not tell you the PC/RAS or they may mislead or lie to you about PC/RAS. Be aware and shut your mouth if you think you are being tricked.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    There is no obligation of a law enforcement officer to give you either probable cause or articulable suspicion at the time of arrest or detainment. They can arrest you without comment and take you to the jail. They can then file the paperwork for the charge. Keep in mind the prosecuting attorney can modify the charge or add to the charge.

    Now, nearly officer likes to exercise their training (i.e. power) to ask you questions to get you to incriminate themselves and they may or may not tell you the PC/RAS or they may mislead or lie to you about PC/RAS. Be aware and shut your mouth if you think you are being tricked.
    \

    There is also no authority for them to arrest you without telling you. and there has been hints in a few court cases judges don't like it, yet they haven't ruled on it yet. It's why I say I won't resist. Government powers are numerated and their authority must be granted. Just because there is no law that says they can't doesn't mean they can. And as I pointed out before case law and the constitution may make it illegal it just hasn't really been ruled upon yet. A federal judge expressed his concerns of FBI not telling a suspect his true reason for arrest for several hrs. So I won't resist, but I am not consenting. The "formal" charges is what is read to you by a judge. (Often giving the prosecutor more time to make more stuff up to try to scare you into a plea)

    I have experienced officers lying about PC etc. We must all assume that non consensual encounters with officers they are lying. But even if they lie about it and you know they are lying, if you resist the encounter it won't look good, because of the way the courts have ruled about that. I don't care if an officer lies to me I will comply and fight that later in court. They should be fired for lying and if you proved an officer lied your case is thrown out, he becomes a Brady cop, and his testimony is pretty much tainted for the rest of his career. But yep the best advice like you mentioned is to keep your trap shut.

    Should have seen how uncomfortable Bellingham prosecutor got when I started asking about Brady vs. Maryland. They have to by law (case law) tell you if that officer has been untruthful in the past. So if anybody gets pulled over by Whatcom County Deputies Freeman, or Vanderveen let me know I have proof of their lies and a local man won a settlement from the county because of it.

    SECTION 1 POLITICAL POWER. All political power is inherent in the people, and governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed, and are established to protect and maintain individual rights.
    P.S. I am not a lawyer but have been doing research on this, along with heavy study of Blackstone law, and our Constitution. So this is not advise to anyone, just my personal reason on what I would do.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 09-01-2011 at 10:34 PM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  24. #24
    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    The very best police stops,
    begin with the cop saying,
    i need to talk to you because,
    you are carrying a gun!

    The cop has admitted that he has no RAS of a crime,
    he has admitted that you are not suspected of a crime,
    the cop has admitted that he has no authority to detain you!

    Thant him for his concern.
    Say No Thank You, turn and walk away!

    IANAL, but this work, as it should, every time!
    And let him know you'll call him if you need backup.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Cite? There are no states that require you to carry ID (unless engaging in certain activities like driving), there are some that require you to identify yourself. Like Nevada, hence Hibbel vs. Nevada. They still have to have PC or RAS, and in the judges own ruling if identifying yourself may incriminate you may have a case for it violating your 5th. Another example of courts watering down our rights and furthering the power of the state.

    California's requirement to carry ID was struck down. Kolender vs Lawson.

    Me: Am I being arrested? If yes, can you state the PC or Ras? If yes total cooperation, if no, then I will tell them I won't physically resist but do not consent to the arrest.

    If no (to arrest), Am I being detained? If yes, can you state PC or RAS? If yes, again cooperation, if it is a valid statement. IF not, I say, 'I do not consent and will be walking away, if you choose to arrest me I do not consent but will not resist.' If they say nothing I walk away. IF they arrest me I sue them.

    I will not tolerate "badgering" by police anymore. If they make it clear I am not free to leave, my mouth is shut.
    Personal crime? Police crime? police city? possible crime? Positive crankcase?...
    Oh personal computer... Are you a PC or Mac.
    Attachment 6837
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

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    923
    Quote Originally Posted by Lovenox View Post
    "Assuming you are just walking down the street or whatever you only have to identify yourself if the cop needs to write a citation. During a "casual encounter" you can refuse to provide your name."

    Who makes the determination on whether it is a "casual encounter" or RAS based??
    I guess a mix of the law, the court, the cop, and yourself. I guess the cop basically decides if he is treating it as a "casual encounter" or if he has RAS. But also if you reasonably feel you are not free to leave then you are being detained.

    Depending on the circumstances. What I would do, is ask "Am I being detained?". If he does not answer in the affirmative, I say "have a nice day" and walk away.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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