Just to be clear. If you are contacted by police for Open Carry...

amzbrady · Sep 1, 2011

Just to be clear. If you are contacted by police for Open Carry, and they ask for ID. If they dont say they dont have RAS, or are not detaining you...

Can you or can you not just walk away? Yes / No
Do you have to show them ID? Yes / No
Do you even have to tell them your name? Yes / No

If you are stopped should you immediatly ask if you are being detained or arrested. If they say no should you tell them to have a pleasant day and attempt to leave. After all they did not stop you to find out how your day is going. If they say they need to talk with you should you ask am I being detained or arrested and if not attempt to leave. If they ask for ID, (I'll leave this to the Pro's) I know you dont have to show ID if they are not detaining or arresting you, I am still not sure if you have to give them your name and address? If they disarm you, I have seen posted here by many who are not lawyers that you should clearly state that you object to them siezing your firearm and do not give them permission to take it... No matter what be sure to turn on your recorder before they approach you if you see them coming. I have told my wife to start recording also and to stay in front of the officer in plain view so she is not "obstructing" or making the copy with a gun and bullet proof vest nervous. The recorder will have a better chance of picking up audio that way.

More new members that need to know, we already see some posting that they are saying things that can be construed as intimidation, talking about asking for permission to carry in businesses. Might as well leave some info for them so that when they are contacted they will know what to do, and how to handle the police.

IANAL

Citizen · Sep 1, 2011

You might be a little clearer than you want.

Telling readers what to do in a legal context is, as I understand it, giving legal advice.

This is why I try to pass along how I plan to act/plan to say, rather than telling others what actions to take/what to say.

Also, it helps new readers grasp the underlying principles about the 4th and 5th Amendment if you provide cites, quotes, links, and so forth. In effect, giving them stuff they can read to understand the rules and plan their own tactics. This has the additional benefit of introducing them to those rights.

amzbrady · Sep 1, 2011

Citizen said:
You might be a little clearer than you want.

Telling readers what to do in a legal context is, as I understand it, giving legal advice.

This is why I try to pass along how I plan to act/plan to say, rather than telling others what actions to take/what to say.

Also, it helps new readers grasp the underlying principles about the 4th and 5th Amendment if you provide cites, quotes, links, and so forth. In effect, giving them stuff they can read to understand the rules and plan their own tactics. This has the additional benefit of introducing them to those rights.

True, changed, I shouldnt be so clear.

END_THE_FED · Sep 1, 2011

amzbrady said:
.......Do you even have to tell them your name? Yes / No.....

....I know you dont have to show ID if they are not detaining or arresting you, I am still not sure if you have to give them your name and address?....

If you are operating a motor vehicle then you must provide your government permission slip if asked.

Assuming you are just walking down the street or whatever you only have to identify yourself if the cop needs to write a citation. During a "casual encounter" you can refuse to provide your name.

SpyderTattoo · Sep 1, 2011

If you're not operanting a motor vehicle you don't need your driver's license on you. You are not required to carry ID on your person. If you're open carrying and not in your vehicle, you're not required to carry your CPL on your person.

If you ever get the chance to OC without any ID on you, do it. If you get stopped by the police, (which I have under these circumstances) make sure to get a good look at their face/faces. They don't seem to know what to do.

This isn't about being confrontational with them, just about being left alone.

sudden valley gunner · Sep 1, 2011

SpyderTattoo said:
If you're not operanting a motor vehicle you don't need your driver's license on you. You are not required to carry ID on your person. If you're open carrying and not in your vehicle, you're not required to carry your CPL on your person.

If you ever get the chance to OC without any ID on you, do it. If you get stopped by the police, (which I have under these circumstances) make sure to get a good look at their face/faces. They don't seem to know what to do.

This isn't about being confrontational with them, just about being left alone.

+1 , it is priceless seeing the look on their face. And it is about simply being left alone.

Difdi · Sep 1, 2011

amzbrady said:
they did not stop you to find out how your day is going. If they say they need to talk with you should you ask am I being detained or arrested and if not attempt to leave. If they ask for ID, (I'll leave this to the Pro's) I know you dont have to show ID if they are not detaining or arresting you, I am still not sure if you have to give them your name and address? If they disarm you, I have seen posted here by many who are not lawyers that you should clearly state that you object to them siezing your firearm and do not give them permission to take it... No matter what be sure to turn on your recorder before they approach you if you see them coming. I have told my wife to start recording also and to stay in front of the officer in plain view so she is not "obstructing" or making the copy with a gun and bullet proof vest nervous. The recorder will have a better chance of picking up audio that way.

You should probably note that this is exclusive to Washington state. There are in fact states where they don't have to arrest you to demand you identify yourself (some even require you produce actual ID). Refusing to do so in those states is indeed illegal. Not everyone who reads and comments on the Washington forum is from Washington, after all.

amzbrady said:
IANAL

Then you shouldn't give legal advice in an authoritative tone.

Deanimator · Sep 1, 2011

Difdi said:
You should probably note that this is exclusive to Washington state. There are in fact states where they don't have to arrest you to demand you identify yourself (some even require you produce actual ID). Refusing to do so in those states is indeed illegal. Not everyone who reads and comments on the Washington forum is from Washington, after all.

Then you shouldn't give legal advice in an authoritative tone.

Can you name a state which LEGALLY requires you to carry ID when not engaged in enumerated activities such as driving or carrying a firearm?

Ohio has NO requirement for ID unless you're operating a motor vehicle or carrying a CONCEALED handgun, and possibly a few other circumstances.

I can open carry a handgun with no identification AT ALL.

I may be required to VERBALLY provide ID if DETAINED. That's why my lawyer is fanatical about the first thing out of your mouth (other than required notification if carry concealed) being "Officer, am I free to leave?" If the answer is "no", ID yourself if necessary, but answer NO questions and volunteer NO information without an attorney present.

Cops don't involuntarily stop you for YOUR benefit.

deanf · Sep 1, 2011

Then you shouldn't give legal advice in an authoritative tone.

He didn't. It was more of a ramble.

amzbrady · Sep 1, 2011

Difdi said:
You should probably note that this is exclusive to Washington state. There are in fact states where they don't have to arrest you to demand you identify yourself (some even require you produce actual ID). Refusing to do so in those states is indeed illegal. Not everyone who reads and comments on the Washington forum is from Washington, after all.

View attachment 6832

Then you shouldn't give legal advice in an authoritative tone.

View attachment 6833

deanf said:
He didn't. It was more of a ramble.

Bingo,

Lovenox · Sep 1, 2011

"Assuming you are just walking down the street or whatever you only have to identify yourself if the cop needs to write a citation. During a "casual encounter" you can refuse to provide your name."

Who makes the determination on whether it is a "casual encounter" or RAS based??

Freedom First · Sep 1, 2011

Lovenox;1603272Who makes the determination on whether it is a "casual encounter" or RAS based??[/QUOTE said:
That's a good question.

The LEO is asking for information. You kindly refuse to comply and attempt to leave. His reaction to that choice would speak volumes and rapidly clear up matters. Just make sure your jury cam is on...

Vitaeus · Sep 1, 2011

the LEO makes that determination, until it is clear you are being cited or detained you may decline to give identification verbally or materially, as I understand the RCWs.

My intention if stopped and the encounter seems to be veering towards either a lecture or other unwarranted intrusion is to simply bid him "Good day" and begin to leave the "encounter".

rcawdor57 · Sep 1, 2011

Is It Legal To Record Audio Without All Persons Consent In Washington?

Link: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.73.030

I lived in Silverdale many years and my family still lives in the area. We were going to install a video/audio security system in our home but found out we could not record audio because of the "law" in Washington. What have I missed?

On another note: If it is indeed legal to record audio in Washington state I highly suggest carrying a video/audio recorder to record everything.

Trigger Dr · Sep 1, 2011

You are missing the NOITCE that it is being recorded. On the other hand, "IF" one were to post obvious signs at conspicous locations that the recording of video and audio is used. you might be ok. IANAL ymmv

amzbrady · Sep 1, 2011

Lovenox said:
"Assuming you are just walking down the street or whatever you only have to identify yourself if the cop needs to write a citation. During a "casual encounter" you can refuse to provide your name."

Who makes the determination on whether it is a "casual encounter" or RAS based??

Vitaeus said:
the LEO makes that determination, until it is clear you are being cited or detained you may decline to give identification verbally or materially, as I understand the RCWs.

My intention if stopped and the encounter seems to be veering towards either a lecture or other unwarranted intrusion is to simply bid him "Good day" and begin to leave the "encounter".

Thats why I would turn on the recorder and ask "Am I being detained or Arrested" If he says no, I would bid him a good day. "I said Good day sir!" If he says yes and does not have RAS then I will have now just started my case against him. If he doesnt answer, I would repeat my self until he does answer.

Cop- "I need to see some ID"
Me- "Am I being detained or Arrested?"
Cop- "I need to see some ID"
Me- "Am I being detained or Arrested?"
Cop- "I just need you to show me some ID"
Me- "I just need you to inform me if I am being detained or arrested"...
Cop- "Look, dont make this difficult, let me see ID and if everything is ok, you can be on your way".
Me- "Look, everything was OK, and I WAS on my way. You just stopped me without RAS and made this difficult. Am I being detained or arrested?"

Those of you that have had this happen know how it plays out from there, which of course is different depending on how you continued. You either wind up complying, or standing up for your rights, depending on your situation. I have already discussed this with my wife that as long as I am not jepordizing their safety if this happens when we are out, that she may have to go home and get my bail money because I will not be backing down. She understands my convictions.

amzbrady · Sep 1, 2011

NavyLCDR said:
It doesn't matter if the stop is a casual encounter or a RAS based detention. You still don't have to provide ID or identify yourself until the point where they are actually going to write you a citation. So... first question, "Are you detaining me?" Answer is yes. If they are pressing you for identification after that, the next statement you say should be, "You're going to have to write me a citation for the law you think I am breaking." Call their bluff.

What if they say they will arrest you for obstruction, if you dont provide ID? They could also say I am going to write you a citation so I need your ID, then run it and not write up anything, just using that as a ploy to get you to comply. Then you are ID'd, They are tricky that way.

jt59 · Sep 1, 2011

amzbrady said:
What if they say they will arrest you for obstruction, if you dont provide ID? They could also say I am going to write you a citation so I need your ID, then run it and not write up anything, just using that as a ploy to get you to comply. Then you are ID'd, They are tricky that way.

You could ask them what the citation was for, and make them answer....if your recording, this would be good to have on tape. It seems like at this point you are being detained and your 4th case is begun.

G20-IWB24/7 · Sep 1, 2011

Difdi said:
Then you shouldn't give legal advice in an authoritative tone.

Couldn't this ^^^^ statement be construed as "legal advice" in one form or another???

1245A Defender · Sep 1, 2011

well,,,

The very best police stops,
begin with the cop saying,
i need to talk to you because,
you are carrying a gun!

The cop has admitted that he has no RAS of a crime,
he has admitted that you are not suspected of a crime,
the cop has admitted that he has no authority to detain you!

Thant him for his concern.
Say No Thank You, turn and walk away!

IANAL, but this work, as it should, every time!

Just to be clear. If you are contacted by police for Open Carry...

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