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Thread: Restraining Order = Lose 2A Rights?

  1. #1
    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Restraining Order = Lose 2A Rights?

    I've heard of several people who had bogus restraining orders taken on them but had to immediately liquidate their firearms possessions until they could sort it all out.

    This seems like it should be a huge target for us in the 2A community to take on as it could happen to anyone with absolutely no warning or justification. The result is a very expensive battle while in the meantime your 2A rights to self-defense are stripped.

    Are there any ongoing efforts on this front that those of us who care about this issue could help out with?

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgreen View Post
    I've heard of several people who had bogus restraining orders No, those restraining orders were quite valid. It's just that there was no justification for them being issued. taken on them but had to immediately liquidate Not quite the best word to use, but we know what you mean. their firearms possessions until they could sort it all out.

    This seems like it should be a huge target for us in the 2A community to take on as it could happen to anyone with absolutely no warning or justification. The result is a very expensive battle while in the meantime your 2A rights to self-defense are stripped.

    Are there any ongoing efforts on this front that those of us who care about this issue could help out with?
    Some folks have a trusted relative/friend hold their firearms for the duration, rather than "liquidate their possessions". Are you looking for a network of volunteers who could step forward and do that? Are you looking for a private business to do that?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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  3. #3
    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Some folks have a trusted relative/friend hold their firearms for the duration, rather than "liquidate their possessions". Are you looking for a network of volunteers who could step forward and do that? Are you looking for a private business to do that?

    stay safe.
    I'm looking at how we as a community can fix the problem rather than apply bandages (having a non-profit setup to hold firearms in that situation for a nominal donation/fee would be good stop-gap measure).

    Are there groups NRA/VCDL/etc.. working this front?

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    The misuse of restraining orders is not really a 2A/RKBA issue, so I'd guess that NRA/VCDL/GOA/SAF/etc are not involved to any meaningful extent. My guess is that organization that focus of civil rights (OK, discounting the ACLU and NAACP) and parental rights (most likely rights of fathers/husbands moreso than wymen's right) is where you will find this a hot-and-heavy topic.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  5. #5
    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    The misuse of restraining orders is not really a 2A/RKBA issue, so I'd guess that NRA/VCDL/GOA/SAF/etc are not involved to any meaningful extent. My guess is that organization that focus of civil rights (OK, discounting the ACLU and NAACP) and parental rights (most likely rights of fathers/husbands moreso than wymen's right) is where you will find this a hot-and-heavy topic.

    stay safe.
    I agree that the misuse of restraining orders itself is not a 2A issue but it has direct and immediate impacts to 2A/RKBA. I've spoken to some folks from victims of domestic violence advocacy groups (both male and female victims) and the 2A/RKBA issue is not on their radar in terms of addressing at all, but they do acknowledge its a problem and ask why the NRA is not doing anything (their words not mine). So those other groups seem to think that issue is a 2A issue that is outside their purview...

    I don't know all the legal liabilities, but at a high level seems like a non-profit or sub-non-profit could setup a "Gun Safe" program where folks can have their firearms stored safely while they work out the restraining orders.
    If it turns out its a legit restraining order and they are adjudicated to not be able to posses firearms then the non-profit can sell off the collection (keeping a % to cover operating costs, rest goes to previous owner), if it is overturned (with the help of attorneys recommended by the non-profit) then they get their guns back and there is a lot less headache than trying to find a trusted friend/family member willing to hold the firearm collection and hopefully the owner makes a nice donation for the help... All the while working on easing the laws that strip people of the right to self defense when subject to restraining orders.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgreen View Post
    I agree that the misuse of restraining orders itself is not a 2A issue but it has direct and immediate impacts to 2A/RKBA. I've spoken to some folks from victims of domestic violence advocacy groups (both male and female victims) and the 2A/RKBA issue is not on their radar in terms of addressing at all, but they do acknowledge its a problem and ask why the NRA is not doing anything (their words not mine). So those other groups seem to think that issue is a 2A issue that is outside their purview...

    I don't know all the legal liabilities, but at a high level seems like a non-profit or sub-non-profit could setup a "Gun Safe" program where folks can have their firearms stored safely while they work out the restraining orders.
    If it turns out its a legit restraining order and they are adjudicated to not be able to posses firearms then the non-profit can sell off the collection (keeping a % to cover operating costs, rest goes to previous owner), if it is overturned (with the help of attorneys recommended by the non-profit) then they get their guns back and there is a lot less headache than trying to find a trusted friend/family member willing to hold the firearm collection and hopefully the owner makes a nice donation for the help... All the while working on easing the laws that strip people of the right to self defense when subject to restraining orders.
    I'll hazard a guess here that this would require transfer(s) between the owner and an FFL, at a minimum. Of course, the transfer back to the owner would involve that pesky Form 4473.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    I'll hazard a guess here that this would require transfer(s) between the owner and an FFL, at a minimum. Of course, the transfer back to the owner would involve that pesky Form 4473.
    I don't know that this is true. User has mentioned several times that there is a significant distinction between ownership and possession. I don't know where that distinction falls for restraining orders, or what sort of mechanisms must be put in place to satisfy a court in that regard. (i.e. how do you convince a judge that the person holding your guns for you will not return them at your request, without verifying that the order has been lifted?)

    TFred

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I don't know that this is true. User has mentioned several times that there is a significant distinction between ownership and possession. I don't know where that distinction falls for restraining orders, or what sort of mechanisms must be put in place to satisfy a court in that regard. (i.e. how do you convince a judge that the person holding your guns for you will not return them at your request, without verifying that the order has been lifted?)

    TFred
    G. Gordon Liddy knows that at least in VIrginia he still retains the right to self defense even with a handgun - one of the many that his wife owns. http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...wp/1982002.pdf , then http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i...p/t-43785.html .

    As for some organization returning the guns - it would be the same question if a friend was holding them during the pendancy of the RO -- if it happened then it/you become liable for what happens next. I'm just thinking that a grassroots network might have less problems all around than a formal business (non-profit or otherwise).

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    So then the question should be asked of the community: Should you be forced to give up possession of your firearms in the event that a RO is taken against you?

    If the answer is yes, then there is nothing more to say here and its just one big PITA for gun owners when they have RO's taken against them (justified or otherwise), they better have a friendly spouse or good, trustworthy, friends, and that's the way it will always be.

    If the answer is no, then what are we going to do about that?
    Last edited by hgreen; 09-02-2011 at 01:30 PM. Reason: gender independent edit for spouse

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgreen View Post
    So then the question should be asked of the community: Should you be forced to give up possession of your firearms in the event that a RO is taken against you?

    If the answer is yes, then there is nothing more to say here and its just one big PITA for gun owners when they have RO's taken against them (justified or otherwise), they better have a friendly spouse or good, trustworthy, friends, and that's the way it will always be.

    If the answer is no, then what are we going to do about that?
    You can ask the community all you want, till you turn blue and look like a Smurf. The fact is that as currently written the law says you have to give up your guns. Actually, what the law says is that while you are under an active RO you cannot posses firearms.

    If you do not like what the law currently says, then work to get the law amended or repealed. Since the law we are discussing is a federal law that means getting your Representative and Senator on board with the idea of changing/repealing at least that portion of the Lautenburg Amendment

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesti...fender_Gun_Ban

    http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-10...nt-detail.html

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/922(g)(9).html


    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  11. #11
    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    You can ask the community all you want, till you turn blue and look like a Smurf. The fact is that as currently written the law says you have to give up your guns. Actually, what the law says is that while you are under an active RO you cannot posses firearms.

    If you do not like what the law currently says, then work to get the law amended or repealed. Since the law we are discussing is a federal law that means getting your Representative and Senator on board with the idea of changing/repealing at least that portion of the Lautenburg Amendment

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesti...fender_Gun_Ban

    http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-10...nt-detail.html

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/922(g)(9).html


    stay safe.
    I'm aware of this, that is why I started the thread. Isn't this the purpose of grass roots 2A communities, to bring about change in bad laws?

    Just wanted to get a feel of what people thought about the law as it is, just because its the "law" does not mean we should not work together to bring about positive change through legal means.

    Looks like not a lot of people care about this issue, if that's the case I'll let it rest. Just thought it would be an area we could all work on.

  12. #12
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgreen View Post
    I'm aware of this, that is why I started the thread. Isn't this the purpose of grass roots 2A communities, to bring about change in bad laws?

    Just wanted to get a feel of what people thought about the law as it is, just because its the "law" does not mean we should not work together to bring about positive change through legal means.

    Looks like not a lot of people care about this issue, if that's the case I'll let it rest. Just thought it would be an area we could all work on.
    If you want to spend time fixing bad laws, why not work on the GFSZA first? That law makes felons out of nearly everyone who wishes to openly carry a gun without a permit (legal in most states).

    The media would have a hay-day with any effort to "put guns back in the hands of violent wife-beaters".

    TFred

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    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    If you want to spend time fixing bad laws, why not work on the GFSZA first? That law makes felons out of nearly everyone who wishes to openly carry a gun without a permit (legal in most states).

    The media would have a hay-day with any effort to "put guns back in the hands of violent wife-beaters".

    TFred
    Yes, there are lots of targets we can work on...

    You think the media won't have a hay day with an effort to "carry loaded guns at school WITH OUR CHILDREN"?

    Its all a big up hill battle.

    I brought this issue up because it just happened to a friend of mine back in California. Here we at least have the opportunity to be exempted from the GFSZs by having a CHP (not perfect obviously), but can you say with 100% that no one will take a bogus RO out on you and result in a great financial cost all while not being able to have your RKBA?

    Lots of ROs result out of personal disputes between business partners, friends, co-workers, etc and may have nothing to do with DV.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Why not go after both things? Why do we need to do one before the other? No matter what we decide to fight the antis will always come up with some fearmongering opposition. The school zone thing to me is obvious. The RO thing I am less sure about.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Why not go after both things? Why do we need to do one before the other? No matter what we decide to fight the antis will always come up with some fearmongering opposition. The school zone thing to me is obvious. The RO thing I am less sure about.
    I think the RO issue is probably more severe in CA where people are generally more litigious and a lot less friendly.

    BTW, I'm all about going after both issues very passionately. If anyone knows of folks who are actively working on either and could use a hand let me know (I don't have much money to donate, but I am willing to give of my time and other skills).

    If no one else is actively working it, who's willing to start with me?
    Last edited by hgreen; 09-02-2011 at 05:31 PM.

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    You probably aren't aware hgreen, but there were bills introduced in the VA General Assembly this past legislative year to change the criteria necessary for a restraining order to be issued in VA. The changes would've made getting a restraining order something a tougher task than it is now, but I think this bill may have been another one that was killed young.

    *BTW with regard to the GFSZ act while many here tend to speak about gun carriers being affected by this act, the honest truth is many more people other than just those who carry guns for personal protection are affected by this law. Any hunter or traveler that wanders out of their home without storing their gun and ammunition in the manner proscribed by the act within 1000 feet of a school property is just as guilty of violating the law as any person who holsters their sidearm while out and about minding their own business. I don't think many hunters are even aware of this, but I could be wrong.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    This is moving along nicely. It started out looking for a way to help an individual who temporarily loses his [generic term - not restricted to just males] RKBA to store his firearms to "Let's see what might be done to fix some onerous laws that were passed more to make people feel good than to actually protect anyone."

    Nut I' still going to drag out my soapbox, climb up on it, anf harangue the crowds. Stop asking "Who's doing something about this 'cause I want to help them"!! Either go find out and come back telling us who to support, how to support them and how, or start the fight yourself. You got a cause? Go make some noise about it and do what you need to in order to get someone else to join you. Stop waiting for someone else to start the revolution.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  18. #18
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    This is moving along nicely. It started out looking for a way to help an individual who temporarily loses his [generic term - not restricted to just males] RKBA to store his firearms to "Let's see what might be done to fix some onerous laws that were passed more to make people feel good than to actually protect anyone."

    Nut I' still going to drag out my soapbox, climb up on it, anf harangue the crowds. Stop asking "Who's doing something about this 'cause I want to help them"!! Either go find out and come back telling us who to support, how to support them and how, or start the fight yourself. You got a cause? Go make some noise about it and do what you need to in order to get someone else to join you. Stop waiting for someone else to start the revolution.

    stay safe.
    Damn right!
    Someone has to fire that first shot

  19. #19
    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    This is moving along nicely. It started out looking for a way to help an individual who temporarily loses his [generic term - not restricted to just males] RKBA to store his firearms to "Let's see what might be done to fix some onerous laws that were passed more to make people feel good than to actually protect anyone."

    Nut I' still going to drag out my soapbox, climb up on it, anf harangue the crowds. Stop asking "Who's doing something about this 'cause I want to help them"!! Either go find out and come back telling us who to support, how to support them and how, or start the fight yourself. You got a cause? Go make some noise about it and do what you need to in order to get someone else to join you. Stop waiting for someone else to start the revolution.

    stay safe.
    Some people have to feel like they know everything about everyone that posts on here... Good, glad there folks with such great wisdom and so eager to share.

    Doing one thread on one day to try and get a feel for who's doing what out here after just moving in is hardly waiting around for someone to follow... It would be stupid to go blindly charging off into the dark witbout doing some basic recon on a place I thought would have a wealth of insight into the bigger picture for our state... My bad!

    I was really hoping to be able to join up some well established folks in their efforts after I got settled out here instead of having to start up a whole new effort like I had to do back in SoCal. No point reinventing the wheel, as they say. But if that isn't the case on these issues then its not a problem, been there done that.

  20. #20
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgreen View Post
    Some people have to feel like they know everything about everyone that posts on here... Good, glad there folks with such great wisdom and so eager to share.

    Doing one thread on one day to try and get a feel for who's doing what out here after just moving in is hardly waiting around for someone to follow... It would be stupid to go blindly charging off into the dark witbout doing some basic recon on a place I thought would have a wealth of insight into the bigger picture for our state... My bad!

    I was really hoping to be able to join up some well established folks in their efforts after I got settled out here instead of having to start up a whole new effort like I had to do back in SoCal. No point reinventing the wheel, as they say. But if that isn't the case on these issues then its not a problem, been there done that.
    Don't let Skid hurt your feelings, he's just trying to promote activism.
    Sometimes it's best to try to work with an established group and sometimes it;s best to fire the first shot.

    There is no hard and fast rule!

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