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Thread: Who plans on using in the MD Training when applying for their permit ?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Da Po-lock's Avatar
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    Who plans on using the MD Training when applying for their permit ?

    I absolutely will be.
    Last edited by Da Po-lock; 09-02-2011 at 04:45 AM.
    Any one of you lily livered, flea bitten, bow legged varmints care to slap leather with me?

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  2. #2
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    I will the putting it in there with my Hunters Safety Education Cert., NRA Basic Pistol Cert, Defensive Handgun 1 Cert., AZ Permit and UT Permit(if it gets here in time.)

    I am not sending it alone, because I don't want a delay. I personally don't think they will be accepted. If the are, GREAT, I think that they should be. But I am not risking it.

  3. #3
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    I will the putting it in there with my Hunters Safety Education Cert., NRA Basic Pistol Cert, Defensive Handgun 1 Cert., AZ Permit and UT Permit(if it gets here in time.)

    I am not sending it alone, because I don't want a delay. I personally don't think they will be accepted. If the are, GREAT, I think that they should be. But I am not risking it.
    I guess I'm confused? Why send more than one?

  4. #4
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Da Po-lock View Post
    I absolutely will be.
    I am. I have already emailed DOJ telling them that if they reject it, I will be suing.

  5. #5
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    I guess I'm confused? Why send more than one?
    I read somewhere that one should document all the training they aquire and even books that are read that deal with self-defense and the use of deadly-force. That was my line of thought. If you think that is flawed, please let me know.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 09-01-2011 at 08:18 PM.

  6. #6
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    I read somewhere that one should document all the training they aquire and even books that are read that deal with self-defense and the use of deadly-force. That was my line of thought. If you think that is flawed, please let me know.
    I would agree you should have all the documentation but I believe all you'll do by sending all that to the DOJ is open lines of confusion. If you want your permit, send just one thing that you are POSITIVE will be accepted. So... hunters safety or another states permit.

    I'm sending ONLY the MD certificate to make a point. I firmly believe the DOJ is bloviating about the MD training and will back down at the last moment.


    But that's just me.....

  7. #7
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    I'm sending ONLY the MD certificate to make a point. I firmly believe the DOJ is bloviating about the MD training and will back down at the last moment.
    I would join you, but I want my permit yesterday and I don't want to take any chances.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Da Po-lock's Avatar
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    I with you Paul and I also will appeal a rejection in court.
    The law is written and I will not accept any interpretation the DOJ "thinks" the meaning may be.

    The thing I wonder is with some of the questionable training being sold by out-of-state trainers is if their application is denied will any payment be refunded or credited to them when they send in a second application with training that is approved ?

    Has anyone seen what will happen to their payment if their application is denied ?

    ...........Da Po-lock
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  9. #9
    McX
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    i plan to use the Penn. Non-Res, and my Utah training document (never got the license), i hope that will be enough. comments?

  10. #10
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    i plan to use the Penn. Non-Res, and my Utah training document (never got the license), i hope that will be enough. comments?
    In my opinion, sending more than one document is a waste.

  11. #11
    McX
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    In my opinion, sending more than one document is a waste.
    i have been touche'-d. Spock-Paul, you green blooded...........inhuman..............
    Last edited by McX; 09-01-2011 at 09:27 PM.

  12. #12
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    In my opinion, sending more than one document is a waste.
    It's not going to cost my extra postage. And it's not a hassle. I already have the color photo copies of evertyhing I already have.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 09-01-2011 at 09:37 PM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    Definately gonna use it...also have a few friends that dont even own guns and will never carry one, are going to send in the MD training just to get a permit... :-)

  14. #14
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    I have have lots of training certs I could use. I plan on only sending one.

    If you need your training brought out in court you well get your chance what the state holds well not make a differants.

    I hope they take the online course and issue permits from it. If they don't several years from now if Paul wins he'll get his permit. Court actions can take a long time and the state is using others peoples money.

    Good luck Paul may you win.

    We might have consitutional carry be for it is settled.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    I would join you, but I want my permit yesterday and I don't want to take any chances.
    This... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    I have waited too long to be able to carry loaded and holstered on my hip in a vehicle, (and I suppose the GFSZ thing would be nice too). I will be sending my Utah State Permit (if it arrives in time). If not then I will send my certificate of course completion for either the Utah Permit (I have two) or the NRA Basic Handgun Class ( I have one). It the Utah permit comes in time I will send that (copy) by itself.. If not then I will send (copies) of both Utah course certificates along with the NRA Certificate (and maybe a copy of the Utah Permit application along with the signed postal card proving it was received ( I sent it Certified Mail).

    I totally understand the reasons for sending just the MD certificate (I have that as well) but like I said, I have waited too long to be able to "Constitutional Carry" and when I thought we were close to getting that, "They" mandated training, permits, and just for the hell of it, tacked on another 4 months to wait.

    I will pick my battles in the future AFTER I have the permit safely in my hands.... I am opting out of this battle. In fact, I have considered (and decided not to for obvious legal and convienience reasons) not even getting the permit and continue as now with just restricted open carry (to prove a point). But hey.... my mamma did not raise any fools.....

    Excellent thread....

    Outdoorsman1

    Edited To Add: ....

    I hope they take the online course and issue permits from it. If they don't several years from now if Paul wins he'll get his permit. Court actions can take a long time and the state is using others peoples money.

    Good luck Paul may you win.
    This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 09-01-2011 at 11:11 PM.
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

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  16. #16
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    I already meet the requirements. Any training I take is for my own amusement.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oak1971 View Post
    I already meet the requirements. Any training I take is for my own benefit.
    Fixed it for ya....

    Outdoorsman1
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

    George Cecil (1891–1970) American advertising copywriter

    Outdoorsman1
    Member: Wisconsin Carry Inc.
    Member: Silver Lake Sportsmans Club
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    Utah State Permit Holder.
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  18. #18
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman1 View Post
    Fixed it for ya....

    Outdoorsman1
    It benefits me to be amused.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

  19. #19
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman1 View Post
    Fixed it for ya....

    Outdoorsman1
    ++++++++++

  20. #20
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oak1971 View Post
    It benefits me to be amused.
    That is not what I meant.... but then again, I am thinking that you already know what I meant...

    Just Sayin....

    Outdoorsman1
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

    George Cecil (1891–1970) American advertising copywriter

    Outdoorsman1
    Member: Wisconsin Carry Inc.
    Member: Silver Lake Sportsmans Club
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    Utah State Permit Holder.
    Arizona State Permit Holder.

  21. #21
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    I have have lots of training certs I could use. I plan on only sending one.

    If you need your training brought out in court you well get your chance what the state holds well not make a differants.

    I hope they take the online course and issue permits from it. If they don't several years from now if Paul wins he'll get his permit. Court actions can take a long time and the state is using others peoples money.

    Good luck Paul may you win.

    We might have consitutional carry be for it is settled.
    Thanks! It should be faster than that.

    (14m) APPEALS TO THE CIRCUIT COURT. (a) An indi-vidual aggrieved by any action by the department deny-
    ing an application for, or suspending or revoking, a
    license under this section, may appeal directly to the cir-
    cuit court of the county in which the individual resides
    without regard to whether the individual has sought
    review under the process established in sub. (14g).
    (b) To begin an appeal under this subsection, the
    aggrieved individual shall file a petition for review with
    the clerk of the applicable circuit court within 30 days of
    receiving notice of denial of an application for a license
    or of suspension or revocation of a license. The petition
    shall state the substance of the department’s action from
    which the individual is appealing and the grounds upon
    which the individual believes the department’s action to
    be improper. The petition may include a copy of any
    records or documents that are relevant to the grounds
    upon which the individual believes the department’s
    action to be improper.
    (c) A copy of the petition shall be served upon the
    department either personally or by registered or certified
    mail within 5 days after the individual files his or her peti-
    tion under par. (b).
    (d) The department shall file an answer within 15
    days after being served with the petition under par. (c).
    The answer shall include a brief statement of the actions
    taken by the department. The department shall include
    with the answer when filed a copy of any documents or
    records on which the department based its action.
    (e) The court shall review the petition, the answer,
    and any records or documents submitted with the petition
    or the answer. The review under this paragraph shall be
    conducted by the court without a jury but the court may
    schedule a hearing and take testimony.
    (f) The court shall reverse the department’s action if
    the court finds any of the following:
    1. That the department failed to follow any proce-
    dure, or take any action, prescribed under this section.
    2. That the department erroneously interpreted a pro-
    vision of law and a correct interpretation compels a dif-
    ferent action.
    3. That the department’s action depends on a finding
    of fact that is not supported by substantial evidence in the
    record.
    4. a. If the appeal is regarding a denial, that the denial
    was based on factors other than the factors under sub. (3).
    b. If the appeal is regarding a suspension or revoca-
    tion, that the suspension or revocation was based on crite-
    ria other than those under sub. (14) (a) or (am).
    (g) 1. The court’s decision shall provide whatever
    relief is appropriate regardless of the original form of the
    petition.
    2. If the court reverses the department’s action, the
    court may order the department to pay the aggrieved indi-
    vidual all court costs and reasonable attorney fees.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Arrow No.

    I will not be using the MD online training course.
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

  23. #23
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    This Paul is where you could run into the stone walling.

    The review under this paragraph shall be
    conducted by the court without a jury but the court may
    schedule a hearing and take testimony.

    Busy courts could set this months down the road. delaying is one of the states favorite tactic.

  24. #24
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Da Po-lock
    ...with some of the questionable training being sold by out-of-state trainers
    Here's one I came across this morning: a company in MN offering online WI classes.
    http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/st...on=show_detail
    Interesting comments from students, pointing out that in rural areas their class options are severely limited.

    I think their reasoning as to why their course should be accepted is faulty, relying on the "state organization that certifies firearms instructors" clause
    rather than the "course taught by an instructor certified by a state or national organization that certifies firearms instructors" clause.
    They're not a state organization, they're a company made of NRA instructors & training counselors.

    And of course, DOJ is claiming they'll somehow know if a class is taught online.
    Wonder if the certificates are written differently?
    Does MD even have an in-person option, & do their certs print out looking different?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor
    The review under this paragraph shall be conducted by the court without a jury but the court may schedule a hearing and take testimony.
    Busy courts could set this months down the road. delaying is one of the states favorite tactic.
    The law is very clear about the required time limits for performing each step.
    It's even crossed my mind that someone should keep a copy of their application, with the receipt for the certified letter showing when they mailed it, & if DOJ fails to meet the 45 (or 21) day deadline, carry anyway.
    Or while the refusal is in appeal, carry anyway.
    You've got proof that you've tried to comply with the law, & the gov't is restricting your ability to do so.
    Not sure it's the brightest idea in the world, but someone will try it.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 09-30-2011 at 10:47 AM.
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  25. #25
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    I've qualified on AT4, M4, Mk-19, M203, 249, M9, and M2, so I think I'm good.

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