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Thread: A sorry state of affairs....

  1. #1
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    A sorry state of affairs....

    I went to the Walworth County Fair yesterday, as I do every year. Thursday was Senior Citizen's Day so I could save a few bucks. Naturally there were seniors there from all over the surrounding area. Some of them were in pretty bad shape. Oxygen tanks. Missing arms or legs. Various skin ailments. Some of the old fellas in wheel chairs had their VFW caps on.... Of course, when they first entered the fair, they saw this:





    And I thought to myself, these wounded old warriors put it all on the line for our freedoms. They left some of their friends and some of themselves in a foreign land to ensure those freedoms. Now some pissant behind a desk decides to take those freedoms away with a stroke of his pen just because he feels like it and because he can.... I wish that every one of their ailments and their wounds could be put on him!
    Dave
    45ACP-For when you care enough to send the very best-
    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Some people just don't get what freedom means.

    Not to mention, if something does happen, the county is going to pay a large sum of money.
    Last edited by protias; 09-02-2011 at 10:57 AM.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  3. #3
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Have they allowed firearms in previous years? If you don't like their policy why give them money? I agree that it is an absolute slap in the face to the veterans.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  4. #4
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Have they allowed firearms in previous years? If you don't like their policy why give them money? I agree that it is an absolute slap in the face to the veterans.
    They 1st posted last year.

  5. #5
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Not to mention, if something does happen, the county is going to pay a large sum of money.
    The fair is a private organization. Unless they fall under the Summerfest clause, they can't post the property next year.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    The fair is a private organization. Unless they fall under the Summerfest clause, they can't post the property next year.
    If the land is privately owned, then they can post next year without qualifying as a special event.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 09-02-2011 at 01:17 PM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    If the land is privately owned, then they can post next year without qualifying as a special event.
    Not the land. They have parking inside the fence, at least that is my reading of it.

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Let's All Welcome Sheller!

    Welcome to the forum. You indicated you fought for freedom. Which war were you in? Hope you attend the open carry events that are planned and posted on this forum. Looking forward to seeing you about!

    Carry On...
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcawdor57 View Post
    Welcome to the forum. You indicated you fought for freedom. Which war were you in? Hope you attend the open carry events that are planned and posted on this forum. Looking forward to seeing you about!

    Carry On...
    Ignore sheller. It is most likely that troll.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Ignore sheller. It is most likely that troll.
    Man, one post and he's a troll? Little harsh maybe? I like to give them at least three posts before I label them. He might be a good guy, give him a chance, just one though .
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  11. #11
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Man, one post and he's a troll? Little harsh maybe? I like to give them at least three posts before I label them. He might be a good guy, give him a chance, just one though .
    After a dozen or so users it has created, it is the same M.O. It is easy to spot.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  12. #12
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Man, one post and he's a troll? Little harsh maybe? I like to give them at least three posts before I label them. He might be a good guy, give him a chance, just one though .
    We have had issues recently where one person keeps signing up and then gets deleted. He sounds like the same guy.

  13. #13
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Not the land. They have parking inside the fence, at least that is my reading of it.
    So, it is public property, meaning that the county owns it? If so, that sign is not enforceable. That fair is this weekend? I might come down and try to get arrested.

    ETA: Public property, they could not post it last year or this year. They can after 11/1/11 if they qualify as a 'special event'.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 09-02-2011 at 04:17 PM.

  14. #14
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    So, it is public land, meaning that the county owns it? If so, that sign is not enforceable. That fair is this weekend? I might come down and try to get arrested.
    No it is fairground (private) land. If it were public, you would get a felony because of a GFSZ violation. Surrounded by public schools.

    Am I wrong? I thought Act 35 (not in effect today) said that private businesses could NOT stop people from carrying on their land? Or did I misread that? They do have to allow guns in cars at least, right?

  15. #15
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    No it is fairground (private) land. If it were public, you would get a felony because of a GFSZ violation. Surrounded by public schools.
    In post #6, I asked if was private property and in post #7, you indicated that is wasn't. I'm confused.

    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Am I wrong? I thought Act 35 (not in effect today) said that private businesses could NOT stop people from carrying on their land? Or did I misread that? They do have to allow guns in cars at least, right?
    I have been through 943.13 alot and its is very confusing. I one part is says that they cannot then goes on to say they can. There si a very good 2A attorney up here. I am going to ask him when I take his NRA-PPOH class in 2 weeks.

    ETA: We could tear it apart and debate unitl then if you are game.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 09-02-2011 at 04:29 PM.

  16. #16
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    In post #6, I asked if was private property and in post #7, you indicated that is wasn't. I'm confused.
    I understand your confusion. I was answering 'not the land' to the implied 'they can post' question not the 'is it private property' question.

    To be clear, the land is private property. I believe that since they allow parking on it, they can't stop guns at the very least in cars and maybe can only ban guns in the buildings.
    Last edited by paul@paul-fisher.com; 09-02-2011 at 04:38 PM.

  17. #17
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    According to the County GIS information, the land is owned by the Walworth County Agricultural Society.


    Dave
    45ACP-For when you care enough to send the very best-
    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

  18. #18
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    According to the County GIS information, the land is owned by the Walworth County Agricultural Society.


    This reconfirms it. Private Property
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 09-02-2011 at 06:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    So, it is public property, meaning that the county owns it? If so, that sign is not enforceable. That fair is this weekend? I might come down and try to get arrested.

    ETA: Public property, they could not post it last year or this year. They can after 11/1/11 if they qualify as a 'special event'.
    Hmmm....not sure about that, is there a particular law that leads you there? Until 11/1, there's no restriction on posting private land. Act 35 narrowed the existing property owner right, it didn't create it. After 11/1, barring weapons requires signs on non-residential property and exempting vehicle carry.


    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post

    Am I wrong? I thought Act 35 (not in effect today) said that private businesses could NOT stop people from carrying on their land? Or did I misread that? They do have to allow guns in cars at least, right?
    I think I know where you might have gotten that impression -- the early versions of SB 93 didn't allow private property owners to ban weapons on grounds or land. The law as passed does allow them to ban outdoors. And you're right, there's an exemption for vehicle carry of firearms (not "weapons"), including in parking areas at special events.

  20. #20
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBomba View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    So, it is public property, meaning that the county owns it? If so, that sign is not enforceable. That fair is this weekend? I might come down and try to get arrested.

    ETA: Public property, they could not post it last year or this year. They can after 11/1/11 if they qualify as a 'special event'.
    Hmmm....not sure about that, is there a particular law that leads you there? Until 11/1, there's no restriction on posting private land. Act 35 narrowed the existing property owner right, it didn't create it. After 11/1, barring weapons requires signs on non-residential property and exempting vehicle carry.
    I was saying if it was public property, not private property.

  21. #21
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Am I wrong? I thought Act 35 (not in effect today) said that private businesses could NOT stop people from carrying on their land? Or did I misread that? They do have to allow guns in cars at least, right?
    I don't think you are wrong. AFTER 11/1/11. Firearms cannot be banned on private land that does not have a residence on it. So, Walworth County fairgrounds cannot ban firearms, UNLESS they qualify as a special event.

    Anyone who does not agee, I am working on the cite.

  22. #22
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheller View Post
    I thank you sir. I was in the Viet Nam conflict, 1971-1975 service time.
    Welcome aboard and thanks for your service.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Exclamation Sic Em We Will....

    Quote Originally Posted by sheller View Post
    Thank you HH, we all serve in different ways. I leave it to you younger people to fight the gun rights battle. You have the passion big time, mine is kind of dwindling. My last to do was Madison in 2005 for two days during the PP debate in the Assembly and waiting on a vote.

    It was the most foot stomping, fist pounding theatrics I ever want to see in my lifetime. FUBAR.

    I am lucky enough to watch you people with the energy to sic em.

    We can never rest. This "battle" over our sacred rights will go on long after we all are dust in the wind.

    Thank you for your service and I hope to meet you one day.

    Take Care
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    I don't think you are wrong. AFTER 11/1/11. Firearms cannot be banned on private land that does not have a residence on it. So, Walworth County fairgrounds cannot ban firearms, UNLESS they qualify as a special event.

    Anyone who does not agee, I am working on the cite.
    Oops! I neglected the Forum mandate to provide cites. In thinking that owners of private, non-residential property can ban firearms outdoors, I'm relying on s. 943.13 in the trespassing laws. That's where the vehicle exemption Paul wondered about also appears:

    1m) Whoever does any of the following is subject to a Class B forfeiture:

    ...

    2. While carrying a firearm, enters or remains in any
    part of a nonresidential building, grounds of a nonresi-
    dential building, or
    land that the actor does not own or
    occupy after the owner of the building, grounds, or land,
    if that part of the building, grounds, or land has not been
    leased to another person, or the occupant of that part of
    the building, grounds, or land has notified the actor not
    to enter or remain in that part of the building, grounds, or
    land while carrying a firearm or with that type of firearm.
    This subdivision does not apply to a part of a building,
    grounds, or land occupied by the state or by a local gov-
    ernmental unit, to a privately or publicly owned building
    on the grounds of a university or college, or to the
    grounds of or land owned or occupied by a university of
    college, or, if the firearm is in a vehicle driven or parked
    in the parking facility, to any part of a building, grounds,
    or land used as a parking facility
    .


    Note: governments, colleges and universities have their own sections under the trespassing law allowing them to ban firearms from buildings, but not from outdoor areas except for qualifying special events on their land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sheller View Post
    I thank you sir. I was in the Viet Nam conflict, 1971-1975 service time. I respect both sides of the issue, I carry but I also respect those who do not and stores that post. I understand it makes things somewhat tougher to carry but it is the law, be it good or bad.
    Welcome, Sheller and thank you for your service to our country. I look forward to reading your perspective here!

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