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Thread: DUI ROADBLOCK SAT SEPT 3rd

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    DUI ROADBLOCK SAT SEPT 3rd

    Good opportunnity to OC is at the roadblocks, Tim and I are going, and we invite anyone who wants to come, OC or not... we have extra protest signs if that is your deal. It usually kicks off a little after 7pm. Hope to see you there.
    Last edited by DON`T TREAD ON ME; 09-03-2011 at 02:40 AM. Reason: the usual

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    If you have been wondering how police respond to open carry now is your chance. Checkpoints are great opportunity to defend your 4th amendment rights by exercising your 2nd.

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    Regular Member Sabotage70's Avatar
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    Sweet! Looks like I'll be able to attend this one. Maybe be we should meet up for some "cocktails" before hand.

    You guys have my # so count me in.
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    RED DRAGONS!!!!

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DON`T TREAD ON ME View Post
    Good opportunnity to OC is at the roadblocks, Tim and I are going, and we invite anyone who wants to come, OC or not... we have extra protest signs if that is your deal. It usually kicks off a little after 7pm. Hope to see you there.
    Where is it Tread?

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    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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    Yes where? I dont get off until 11:30 but if its close I will stop in.

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    Paradise & Tropicana between 7pm & 3am.

    They usually aren't setup till around 8pm, and I personally don't plan on being there long, maybe an hour or two. If we're not there when you show up, you can still do your part.

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    Regular Member Sabotage70's Avatar
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    Sorry guys sh!t came up and I couldn't make it.
    EDC=XDm40 16+1+16+16

    RED DRAGONS!!!!

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    Man, why does all the good stuff happen when I'm out of town...

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    OK So we went to the Roadblock, and got out the wheel and measured, and Chatted with the CO (Fletcher) for a few. we determined the checkpoint illegal for several reasons, so instant protest... Turns out this roadblock was positioned ajacent to the "Fruit Loop" which is where the trendy gay bars are located. so we had a certain amount of flavor that was inheirent (sp) to this one. Couple that with the fact that the hard rock was situated on one corner and you might get my drift.

    So we start holding our signs, and we are an instant hit. People poking out the top of limos to take pics, One girl looked like she was gonna show the twin pups with little pink noses, until her boyfriend barked at her. (no pun) I would guess we had over 300 honks, and more than that in the "thumbs up" Dept. The Hard rock provided the Music, The Hoffbraugh (sp) house tried to comp us food, the corner market gave us all the free dinks we wanted, did I mention the scenery was great! (short skirts) This one one of the best ones period. People were so supportive, and insisted on tipping us, we took pictures with "hott Chicks" and I am still grinning. Oh yeah, and we were OC.
    Last edited by DON`T TREAD ON ME; 09-04-2011 at 06:52 AM. Reason: SP as usual

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    Regular Member rscottie's Avatar
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    Where's the pictures?????

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    Quote Originally Posted by DON`T TREAD ON ME View Post
    OK So we went to the Roadblock, and got out the wheel and measured, and Chatted with the CO (Fletcher) for a few. we determined the checkpoint illegal for several reasons, so instant protest... Turns out this roadblock was positioned ajacent to the "Fruit Loop" which is where the trendy gay bars are located. so we had a certain amount of flavor that was inheirent (sp) to this one. Couple that with the fact that the hard rock was situated on one corner and you might get my drift.

    So we start holding our signs, and we are an instant hit. People poking out the top of limos to take pics, One girl looked like she was gonna show the twin pups with little pink noses, until her boyfriend barked at her. (no pun) I would guess we had over 300 honks, and more than that in the "thumbs up" Dept. The Hard rock provided the Music, The Hoffbraugh (sp) house tried to comp us food, the corner market gave us all the free dinks we wanted, did I mention the scenery was great! (short skirts) This one one of the best ones period. People were so supportive, and insisted on tipping us, we took pictures with "hott Chicks" and I am still grinning. Oh yeah, and we were OC.
    You guys have markets that sell those? Does that come with one milf or two?
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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    We need pictures for public relation purposes.
    Last edited by Dogbait; 09-04-2011 at 07:04 PM. Reason: I fail at english.

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    Tiger Lily showed up near the end of the night and took some video, she said she will share shortly...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DON`T TREAD ON ME View Post
    we determined the checkpoint illegal for several reasons, so instant protest...
    Wouldn't it be a hoot if all the DUI attorneys twigged to you guys, got copies of your evidence, and got all charges brought against everyone arrested at the stop dropped? Heh.

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    Last edited by OC-moto450r; 08-02-2012 at 08:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DON`T TREAD ON ME View Post
    OK So we went to the Roadblock, and got out the wheel and measured, and Chatted with the CO (Fletcher) for a few. we determined the checkpoint illegal for several reasons, so instant protest... Turns out this roadblock was positioned ajacent to the "Fruit Loop" which is where the trendy gay bars are located. so we had a certain amount of flavor that was inheirent (sp) to this one. Couple that with the fact that the hard rock was situated on one corner and you might get my drift.

    So we start holding our signs, and we are an instant hit. People poking out the top of limos to take pics, One girl looked like she was gonna show the twin pups with little pink noses, until her boyfriend barked at her. (no pun) I would guess we had over 300 honks, and more than that in the "thumbs up" Dept. The Hard rock provided the Music, The Hoffbraugh (sp) house tried to comp us food, the corner market gave us all the free dinks we wanted, did I mention the scenery was great! (short skirts) This one one of the best ones period. People were so supportive, and insisted on tipping us, we took pictures with "hott Chicks" and I am still grinning. Oh yeah, and we were OC.
    What were the reasons the DUI checkpoint was illegal? You measured with a wheel. What are the measurements supposed to be? Where do you find the legal standards for a DUI checkpoint in Nevada? Just curious.

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    He said Fruit loop. Bwaahahaha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by disneyr View Post
    What were the reasons the DUI checkpoint was illegal? You measured with a wheel. What are the measurements supposed to be? Where do you find the legal standards for a DUI checkpoint in Nevada? Just curious.
    NRS 484B.570 sets the requirements of the checkpoints in this state.

    http://www.leg.state.nv.us/nrs/NRS-4...#NRS484BSec570

    There were three points rendering this checkpoint unlawful.

    First, at the point where the Stop Signs are located, law requires officers to also have a blinking red light, but they did not. The only red lights at the checkpoint were tiny (almost toy-like) flashing lights on signs hundreds of feet prior to the stop.

    Second, police are required to put up warning signs a quarter of a mile prior to the checkpoint warning traffic of the roadblock ahead. Senate Bill 84 reduced that this year to just 700 feet in urban areas, but that doesn't take effect until October 1, so the quarter mile provision is still in effect. The signs were setup approximately 180 feet north of Naples Dr, which put them exactly 0.25 miles from where the checkpoint ends.

    The problem here is that Naples Dr is the only legal turn that can be made to avoid going through the checkpoint, and a right turn is onto a dead-end, so you must turn left. Plus at this point, Paradise is 5 lanes wide going one-way. If you are in the far right lane, 180 feet is far too insufficient to be able to safely and legally avoid the checkpoint. The intent of the law is clearly to allow drivers the right to make a decision as to whether to submit to the checkpoint or not, and to have enough time and distance to do so safely.

    I spoke with the commanding officer, Lieutenant Fletcher, and he contends that his signs were legal. Admittedly, Metro has come a long way since I began checking on them. They have taken steps to secure their signs against the wind knocking them down, and they now strictly adhere to a quarter mile limit. Unfortunately, they continue to measure that distance from the wrong spot. He argues that the distance requirement is met regardless of the ability to avoid the checkpoint legally, and the checkpoint begins where they setup cones. Using his logic, if the checkpoint were moved 200 feet south of its actual location, the first warning signs would not have to be placed until beyond the "point of no return". If that's the case, what's the point of the sign in the first place? My contention is that it doesn't matter where police setup the cones, the checkpoint "begins" when I have no choice but to go through it.

    Finally, Fletcher admits giving all officers a direct order that they are to order every driver to "roll down your window all the way" and if the window doesn't roll down to "open the door". He says that failing to comply will result in your arrest for disobeying the "lawful orders of a police officer". He goes on to explain that "a lawful order is anything I tell you to do." As you probably expect, he and I disagree on this point as well. Administrative road blocks cannot be used to obtain your identity in Nevada, and since you have the right to remain silent, on top of the fact that there is no requirement for you to do so, there is also no legitimate reason to require a window to be rolled down. When asked the question point blank, Fletcher explained that rolling down the window is so officers can detect the smell of alcohol or drugs, which sounds an awful lot like a warrantless search or an order to provide self-incriminating evidence.

    "Roll down your window" is no more a lawful order than "recite the alphabet", "look into my light", "turn off your camera" or "remove your jewelry". As such, every motorist is subjected to an unlawful order, so any evidence obtained from that point was illegally obtained. Officers could work within the bounds of the law by modifying this slightly to "please roll down your window", and most people will comply with the request. But by making it an order, officers have violated the law.

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    Wouldn't it be a hoot if all the DUI attorneys twigged to you guys, got copies of your evidence, and got all charges brought against everyone arrested at the stop dropped? Heh.
    Why not just send the info to the criminal defense bar? For general dissemination to defense attorneys.

    Heck, even if you just sent it to the biggest two or three firms, you'd probably get the word spread pretty quick. The other defense lawyers would probably catch on by hearing it in court while waiting their turn, no?

    Of course, you may end up being called to testify.

    But, I would love to see the commander's comments publicized--the comments about windows being rolled down, and signage positioned too late.

    I'll bet roadblocks start adhering to the law real quick if all that info gets into the hands of the bar.

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    Good background info on the window roll down thing. I had that same problem, faced arrest, at my last dui checkpoint. Now it seems they are ordering officers not only to demand it, but also to arrest for it. Woah! So, decline first, then comply and fight any charges from there. and all the way down too! I'd like to try 1/4....then 1/2...then 3/4...see at what point they stop threatening arrest (and bodily harm with weapons drawn) heh. I raised the question on their 'lawful order' provision of the statute, and there still seems to be no black and white of what they can or can't ask for. I can claim that rolling down my window is unlawful can't i? as it may cause me to incriminate myself...which i am protected from?

    How do we get this 'lawful order' crap wording changed to something specific. The metro officers at my DUI checkpoint told me they had backing from a supreme court ruling...I'm guessing the one that declared dui checkpoints not unlawful...as a minor violation for the good of all thing. Forget the case......

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    Regular Member Lord Sega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DON`T TREAD ON ME View Post
    ...did I mention the scenery was great! (short skirts) This one one of the best ones period. People were so supportive, and insisted on tipping us, we took pictures with "hott Chicks" and I am still grinning. Oh yeah, and we were OC.

    Pics or it didn't happen!

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    Michigan vs Sitz

    In that case, the Supreme Court ruled a 55 minute checkpoint that stopped 101 vehicles was a minimal intrusion. Metro stretches that out to an 8 hour checkpoint that stops thousands of vehicles.

    In the ruling, the justices say that a temporary seizure of your person is a minimal intrusion. However, in classic Supreme Court style, they don't expand on that, leaving the rest up to the lower courts.

    So when the cops says "everything we're doing here is legal, the Supreme Court said so...", it's hogwash. The STOP itself is OK, but that's where it ends. The order to roll down your window is an intrusion that goes beyond what the court even considered. That being said, the Michigan vs Sitz case is pretty much irrelevant in considering anything other than the fact that you have to stop. There is plenty of other case law that deals with self-incrimination, etc. Police authority is quite limited because after you have STOPPED as ordered, you are now in a CONSENSUAL ENCOUNTER, which means no further cooperation (besides stopping) is required. Plus, arguably, stopping thousands of vehicles over a period of 8 hours is far from the minimal numbers the court reviewed, and who knows how they would rule if instead of 101 cars, it was 3817 cars?

    Regarding the lawful order question, I've been giving it a lot of thought. Consider a crime scene. Police can put up crime scene tape on a public sidewalk and cordon off the area. They can give you a lawful order to stay off the sidewalk or stay behind the tape, even though you would normally have a right to walk down that sidewalk. A DUI checkpoint example might be "shut off your lights" because they're interfering with the officer investigating the car in front of you. Or "move to the left lane" because the right lane is backed up. These would be valid lawful orders.
    Last edited by timf343; 09-06-2011 at 12:49 AM.

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    But a checkpoint is not a crime scene. Shut off your lights, and move to this/that lane also don't self incriminate. Roll down your window may/can. And its that michigan case you sited, that they refer to when they claim they have prior supreme court approval. Have you been to one lately driving, and had a supervisor tell you....the supreme court says i can order you to roll down your window. I heard that first hand...that's the prime example I bring you. The rest yes we can all speculate on, and its educational, but I first hand was ordered, just like you said the Lieut you spoke to is ordering his officers, to roll down your window completely. I know you replied to my post back then and said you had gone through a few, one point they waved you on...another point they had a statute ready for you. I'm guessing that this michigan case is their ammo. I asked several times for a citation of statute, they said over and over, we'll get that, we're on it, it's on its way...but they just threatened with arrest after threaten, never did i see them come up with anything. So yah I folded, complied, rolled, and then was let go.


    Some one's post up a few ago...how if a criminal caught wind of our post, could cite that the stop was illegal, not posted right or not enough distance or whatever...it would enrage me to see a criminal drunk got free because of us. I'm against DUI. I feel if you drink and drive you should be in trouble, like most of you. This is the hardest part to argue in this current topic. We're not FOR drinking and driving...we're just against the infringement on our rights, and the waste of resources(money) these stops cause. It's that age old adage, give an inch they take a mile. Let them demand a window roll down...eventually they'll demand...its lawful...to order you from the car, disarm you, identify you, etc...and that's why we start with these 'basics' and prevent the furthering of the 'police state' checkpoint stuff. So, we had some success with this legislature. How can we continue that and expand on that to address this situation. I'm new to this proactive sort of thing, so i might defer to those more experienced. I think this is a classic case of something needing fixed. "lawful order" during a dui stop is too vague and our police are taking advantage of it. Our great state of Nevada needs to recognize this short coming and take action. How? Help needed =).

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    DUI is both malum in prohibitum and malum in se. Checkpoints are only one way to identify those who are violating the law - albeit the easiest way. The problem witrh checkpoints, as has so well be laid out, is that in order to achieve their major goal they violate a whole raft of rights, as well as, apparently with this specific one, violate the very law established to regulate how they are to be set up.

    If you are willing to spend an additional $500 or so we could pass a law requiring all cars to have a breathalyzer interlock installed. Not just new cars starting with model year 2xxx but all cars - no interlock, no registration. No registration, no legally driving the car on the public roads. And yes, there would be additional expenses of regular calibrations of the interlock, and I'm willing to bet the regular (annual, semi-annual depending on where you live) inspection will check to see that it works, which will jack up that expense, too.

    Or we could put more cops on the roads just to look for signs of DUI - police powers limited to that only. It would raise taxes, but it would get some more DUIs off the roads.

    Or we could make DUI a capital offense - that would at least keep the number of repeat offenders down to zero.*

    Or we could stop giving drunk drivers so many "chances" and start locking them up for significant periods of time well before their umpteenth repeat offense. If they will not learn (and I know not all drunk drivers are alcoholics and not all alcoholics are drunk drivers) then incapacitate them. Maybe even put them on lifetime probation after they get out so their PO can breathalyze them at any time.

    It's a balancing act. And there are a lot of folks who do not like balancing the issue of identifying a small number of very dangerous drivers against the violation of many rights of a large portion of the population. Especially when it seems that identifying DUIs does little to actually reduce/eliminate the behavior except for the period of time they are locked up.

    stay safe.

    * Personally I like this option, but that's because I don't drink any more. Wish I was an alcoholic so I could be self-rightous about it, too.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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