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Thread: Why carry at home during a storm

  1. #1
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Why carry at home during a storm

    The police departments have been quiet about crime during the hurricane but I did run across one that's pretty reliable in Hanover.

    Shorty after the power went off, two armed men broke into a house on Wonderland La. in Mechanicsville, pistol whipped and robbed the occupant and ransacked the house.

    The source for this was the victims brother.

  2. #2
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    Hmmmm. That's kind of an ideal time to stage a home invasion if that is your career, no?

    Phones are probably out. No power for an alarm system. Lots more get-away time.

    I think I may have to install that twin-fifty ball turret in the front hall ceiling after all.

  3. #3
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I wonder why that house? Almost sounds like they knew who and what was there for the taking, and just waited for an opportunity to present itself.

    Be interesting to see if any more info comes out.

    TFred

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    My dad lives across the street from me. I am on the low side of the street and was expecting flooding so I stayed at my dad's. During Irene I slept with a Colt govt model, a STI 2011 both in .45ACP and a 12 gage Remington 1187 police model. Only lost power for 18 hrs.

    In 2003, after Isabel we were without power for 8 days. I slept in my TT in my front yard with the windows open so I could listen out for the generators. My dad and I were the only one's on my street with generators and they had stolen the one placed at the main intersection around the corner to operate the traffic lights. I chained them to the front porches and slept with the Colt govt model, the 12 gage and a Colt Sporter Competition H-bar loaded with hollow points. When out and about I had the govt model holstered and the H-bar unloaded and cased in the rear floor board of the truck with the mag's loose inside the case with the H-bar. It was getting a little hairy around town at what few stores and gas stations were open that had power.
    Last edited by mobeewan; 09-05-2011 at 11:31 PM.

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    Regular Member Kevin108's Avatar
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    Arrow

    I loathe to give any traffic to this liberal rag but the Pilot did have a small story on some burglaries in Norfolk.
    http://hamptonroads.com/2011/09/burg...-irene-outages

    The day of the the storm I spent fully dressed with my G26 on my hip.

  6. #6
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    If for no other reason than the fact that a wide-scale severely-disruptive natural incident changes the well-known mantra to:

    "When seconds count, police are only hours away..."

    TFred

  7. #7
    Regular Member Kevin108's Avatar
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    With potential for downed phone and power lines, washed-out or otherwise impassable roads, overwhelmed cell networks, etc., you may very well find yourself on your own in a weather emergency. Prepare accordingly.

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    Also there have been reports of people's generators being stolen after the storm.

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    During the storm there was a tree across the road and 2 residents were trying to remove it and a second tree fell on one of them. The person died. Took 3-1/2 hours for EMS to respond

    http://www.diedin.com/article3739817...ring_irene.htm
    Last edited by mobeewan; 09-06-2011 at 10:23 AM.

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Not meant as a criticism to any who have posted, as I also agree keeping the firearm to hand is wise, however one should decide whether theft of one's property constitutes a direct, immediate, or serious threat.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tess View Post
    Not meant as a criticism to any who have posted, as I also agree keeping the firearm to hand is wise, however one should decide whether theft of one's property constitutes a direct, immediate, or serious threat.
    Sooooo.... you're on your own property and someone attempts to steal the generator that is providing power to your fridge, freezer and lights. Do you just stand there and watch them cut the chain and haul it away -- because the theft of that property does not constitute a direct, immediate or serious threat?"

    Really?

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    Regular Member Lincoln7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tess View Post
    Not meant as a criticism to any who have posted, as I also agree keeping the firearm to hand is wise, however one should decide whether theft of one's property constitutes a direct, immediate, or serious threat.
    I think it does in response to the OP's information. Some of the other examples given may be questionable...in Virginia.

  13. #13
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Just me thinking out loud.

    It seems to me that if you are in the general vicinity of your valuable personal property (a generator, and perhaps consumables required for survival), or even better, if you are physically between a potential bad guy and said valuables, then one cannot purport to steal such items without also implying some physical threat to you, the guardian of said items.

    At some point, if any semblance of civilized society still exists, one must surely be permitted to stand one's ground in guard of valuable items, especially such items required for survival, and in the face of threat from one who intends to overcome your guardianship by some means detrimental to your well-being, self-defense justification would seem to come into play.

    I guess we'll need to wait for User to stop by and give us his thoughts.

    TFred

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Sooooo.... you're on your own property and someone attempts to steal the generator that is providing power to your fridge, freezer and lights. Do you just stand there and watch them cut the chain and haul it away -- because the theft of that property does not constitute a direct, immediate or serious threat?"

    Really?
    If that was all that was going on, and you were not able to disuade them with some level of force less than deadly force, then yes, the answer is "Yes, you stand there and let them take it." As much as it frosts everyone, Virginia case law clearly states that you are not privileged to defend property with deadly force. You can do so, but you take your chances with winding up in prison yourself. Please pay close attention to the fact that I noted that you can use some levels of force to protect property - just not deadly force.

    However, the situation reported by the OP was that two armed men broke in, pistol-whipped the occupant, and robbed him. That's armed robbery with violence. In that case self defense by use of deadly force is not prohibited.

    Please be aware that not only how you ask your question but what conditions you put in the scenario will effect what sort of answer you will get.

    stay safe.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Tess and Skid make a good point.
    What we say here is a permanent record and can come back to bite us later.

    That said...I haven't seen anything really wrong with the discussion so far. Being armed while guarding your property is only common sense.

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    Campaign Veteran Dutch Uncle's Avatar
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    I have more canisters of OC spray than I can count in this house. They are in every room, and on the sill above each entry door. I think opening a few cans of that whoop-ass on them might make stealing much less pleasant. If they still escalate, then so can you. Maybe OC wouldn't have been worth the trouble; that's a judgment call for you, since these kinds of situations can be so fluid.

  17. #17
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lincoln7 View Post
    I think it does in response to the OP's information. Some of the other examples given may be questionable...in Virginia.
    I should have been clearer. I did mean my comments to address some of the posts after the original.

    I believe the theft of the generator, absent threats to my person or family, does not justify deadly force. I don't see it as "necessary to survival". Your mileage may vary; we're not all the same person.

    And as I said, I am not passing judgment, I'm simply asking folks to think things all the way through and consider whether they really mean what they posted.

  18. #18
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tess View Post
    I should have been clearer. I did mean my comments to address some of the posts after the original.

    I believe the theft of the generator, absent threats to my person or family, does not justify deadly force. I don't see it as "necessary to survival". Your mileage may vary; we're not all the same person.

    And as I said, I am not passing judgment, I'm simply asking folks to think things all the way through and consider whether they really mean what they posted.
    Absolutely, circumstances and details are what count.

    Are you "chasing" the thief down the street after you notice your power goes out? Or are you sitting on top of your generator, staring down a thug approaching you with a baseball bat?

    Are we at the tail end of an inconvenient couple of days, in a city neighborhood with all underground power lines? Or are we at the beginning of a major hurricane, and living at the end of a 2 mile long tree-lined driveway?

    All these sorts of things factor in.

    TFred

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    Regarding generators, I guess whether the generator was supplying power for a oxygen equipment, or a small fridge to keep insulin cool, etc., might come into play.

    You guys have convinced me, though. With all the stories of bad stuff done by crooks, during the next bad weather event, I'm gonna have to get my shotgun from the bottom of that boating accident lake and keep it handy. I'll let 'em take my stuff from outside, but darned if I'm gonna let anybody point guns at me.

  20. #20
    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    If that was all that was going on, and you were not able to disuade them with some level of force less than deadly force, then yes, the answer is "Yes, you stand there and let them take it." As much as it frosts everyone, Virginia case law clearly states that you are not privileged to defend property with deadly force. You can do so, but you take your chances with winding up in prison yourself. Please pay close attention to the fact that I noted that you can use some levels of force to protect property - just not deadly force.
    This is a situation that warrants the proper application of an "Impact Deterent Device", formally known as a "Hickory Shampoo". If they try to take it, make 'em pay for it.
    Last edited by ODA 226; 09-07-2011 at 08:12 AM.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODA 226 View Post
    This is a situation that warrants the proper application of an "Impact Deterent Device", formally known as a "Hickory Shampoo". If they try to take it, make 'em pay for it.
    I believe you are referring to the performing of an "Attitude Readjustment" or perhaps the checking to see if the "Brain Housing Group" is properly and firmly attached to the neck section of the "Head and Shoulders Assembly" that is so often in need of realignment.

    From personal experiences both in the application of and receiving of such maneuvers I have learned that it is much safer to use techniques that do not require provider and recipient to be in such close proximity to each other. While anachronistic there are many good things to be said about the presence of a decent bayonet at the end of a stout battle rifle (not the wimpy can-openers ginned up for today's plastic toys). As an example, with a Mosin-Nagant one could remain on the porch and still poke someone on the other side of the street. Those preferring scatterguns are referred to not this http://palmettostatearmory.com/1378.php but this https://store.bluebookinc.com/Firear...y=1&article=77 .

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  22. #22
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I believe you are referring to the performing of an "Attitude Readjustment" or perhaps the checking to see if the "Brain Housing Group" is properly and firmly attached to the neck section of the "Head and Shoulders Assembly" that is so often in need of realignment.

    From personal experiences both in the application of and receiving of such maneuvers I have learned that it is much safer to use techniques that do not require provider and recipient to be in such close proximity to each other. While anachronistic there are many good things to be said about the presence of a decent bayonet at the end of a stout battle rifle (not the wimpy can-openers ginned up for today's plastic toys). As an example, with a Mosin-Nagant one could remain on the porch and still poke someone on the other side of the street. Those preferring scatterguns are referred to not this http://palmettostatearmory.com/1378.php but this https://store.bluebookinc.com/Firear...y=1&article=77 .

    stay safe.
    Mick Dundee mght recognize that as "...a knife, by cracky...", but wouldn't that be brandisihing?

    Or, since this attempted thievery is taking place during a state of emergency, wouldn't these would-be thieves be considered looters?
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  23. #23
    Regular Member jnojr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    If that was all that was going on, and you were not able to disuade them with some level of force less than deadly force, then yes, the answer is "Yes, you stand there and let them take it." As much as it frosts everyone, Virginia case law clearly states that you are not privileged to defend property with deadly force.
    Yup, if you defend property with lethal force, you're in trouble.

    However, if you go out to stop them from stealing from you, using no more force than is necessary, and they turn to attack you, and you are forced to defend yourself with lethal force... that's a whole different ball of wax. Nothing in the law says you have to stand by and do nothing while your property is stolen from you.

    This is one of the reasons why you should never make a statement until you've spoken with counsel... you can describe the same incident two ways. One way, you walk away. Another, you go to prison. The underlying facts aren't different, just how you articulated them and what you told them your "state of mind" was.
    Virginians - Have you joined http://www.vcdl.org/ ?

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnojr View Post
    Yup, if you defend property with lethal force, you're in trouble.

    However, if you go out to stop them from stealing from you, using no more force than is necessary, and they turn to attack you, and you are forced to defend yourself with lethal force... that's a whole different ball of wax. Nothing in the law says you have to stand by and do nothing while your property is stolen from you.

    This is one of the reasons why you should never make a statement until you've spoken with counsel... you can describe the same incident two ways. One way, you walk away. Another, you go to prison. The underlying facts aren't different, just how you articulated them and what you told them your "state of mind" was.
    fear alone is not enough http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...wp/1010071.pdf

    disparity of force not a defense by itself http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...wp/1010071.pdf

    Which is why the advice to speak with legal counsel before making any statement to the police except telling them you will be glad to coperate and make your statement after you have spoken with your attorney, giving them your basic ID info, noting any medical problems you have that need addressing, and pointing out physical evidence or witnesses, makes great sense.

    To repeat: "Nothing in the law says you have to stand by and do nothing while your property is stolen from you." But the law does say what the limits are on what you may do and what level of force you may use to try to prevent that theft of property. When the attempted theft changes to an attack on your person the rules change. Notice how jnojr may have gotten himself caught by the way he phrased his statement? A good attorney would have made sure the ambiguity was avoided, while a great attorney would have made sure the focus was on your protecting yourself from death or great bodily harm being inflicted upon you by those bad people without cause or provocation on your part.

    I am very pleased to see the discussion staying focused on remaining aware of and within the limits of what the laws allow, as opposed to chest-thumping statements of how quickly BGs would be blown to bits and start fertilizing the lawn.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODA 226 View Post
    This is a situation that warrants the proper application of an "Impact Deterent Device", formally known as a "Hickory Shampoo". If they try to take it, make 'em pay for it.
    Hey batter batter, hey batter... hey batter..... SWING!!


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