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Why carry at home during a storm

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
This is a situation that warrants the proper application of an "Impact Deterent Device", formally known as a "Hickory Shampoo". If they try to take it, make 'em pay for it.

I believe you are referring to the performing of an "Attitude Readjustment" or perhaps the checking to see if the "Brain Housing Group" is properly and firmly attached to the neck section of the "Head and Shoulders Assembly" that is so often in need of realignment.

From personal experiences both in the application of and receiving of such maneuvers I have learned that it is much safer to use techniques that do not require provider and recipient to be in such close proximity to each other. While anachronistic there are many good things to be said about the presence of a decent bayonet at the end of a stout battle rifle (not the wimpy can-openers ginned up for today's plastic toys). As an example, with a Mosin-Nagant one could remain on the porch and still poke someone on the other side of the street. Those preferring scatterguns are referred to not this http://palmettostatearmory.com/1378.php but this https://store.bluebookinc.com/Firearms/GunOfWeek.aspx?industry=1&article=77 .

stay safe.
 

2a4all

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Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
1,846
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
I believe you are referring to the performing of an "Attitude Readjustment" or perhaps the checking to see if the "Brain Housing Group" is properly and firmly attached to the neck section of the "Head and Shoulders Assembly" that is so often in need of realignment.

From personal experiences both in the application of and receiving of such maneuvers I have learned that it is much safer to use techniques that do not require provider and recipient to be in such close proximity to each other. While anachronistic there are many good things to be said about the presence of a decent bayonet at the end of a stout battle rifle (not the wimpy can-openers ginned up for today's plastic toys). As an example, with a Mosin-Nagant one could remain on the porch and still poke someone on the other side of the street. Those preferring scatterguns are referred to not this http://palmettostatearmory.com/1378.php but this https://store.bluebookinc.com/Firearms/GunOfWeek.aspx?industry=1&article=77 .

stay safe.
Mick Dundee mght recognize that as "...a knife, by cracky...", but wouldn't that be brandisihing?

Or, since this attempted thievery is taking place during a state of emergency, wouldn't these would-be thieves be considered looters?
 

jnojr

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2010
Messages
42
Location
Reston, VA
If that was all that was going on, and you were not able to disuade them with some level of force less than deadly force, then yes, the answer is "Yes, you stand there and let them take it." As much as it frosts everyone, Virginia case law clearly states that you are not privileged to defend property with deadly force.

Yup, if you defend property with lethal force, you're in trouble.

However, if you go out to stop them from stealing from you, using no more force than is necessary, and they turn to attack you, and you are forced to defend yourself with lethal force... that's a whole different ball of wax. Nothing in the law says you have to stand by and do nothing while your property is stolen from you.

This is one of the reasons why you should never make a statement until you've spoken with counsel... you can describe the same incident two ways. One way, you walk away. Another, you go to prison. The underlying facts aren't different, just how you articulated them and what you told them your "state of mind" was.
 

skidmark

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Valhalla
Yup, if you defend property with lethal force, you're in trouble.

However, if you go out to stop them from stealing from you, using no more force than is necessary, and they turn to attack you, and you are forced to defend yourself with lethal force... that's a whole different ball of wax. Nothing in the law says you have to stand by and do nothing while your property is stolen from you.

This is one of the reasons why you should never make a statement until you've spoken with counsel... you can describe the same incident two ways. One way, you walk away. Another, you go to prison. The underlying facts aren't different, just how you articulated them and what you told them your "state of mind" was.

fear alone is not enough http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opnscvwp/1010071.pdf

disparity of force not a defense by itself http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opnscvwp/1010071.pdf

Which is why the advice to speak with legal counsel before making any statement to the police except telling them you will be glad to coperate and make your statement after you have spoken with your attorney, giving them your basic ID info, noting any medical problems you have that need addressing, and pointing out physical evidence or witnesses, makes great sense.

To repeat: "Nothing in the law says you have to stand by and do nothing while your property is stolen from you." But the law does say what the limits are on what you may do and what level of force you may use to try to prevent that theft of property. When the attempted theft changes to an attack on your person the rules change. Notice how jnojr may have gotten himself caught by the way he phrased his statement? A good attorney would have made sure the ambiguity was avoided, while a great attorney would have made sure the focus was on your protecting yourself from death or great bodily harm being inflicted upon you by those bad people without cause or provocation on your part.

I am very pleased to see the discussion staying focused on remaining aware of and within the limits of what the laws allow, as opposed to chest-thumping statements of how quickly BGs would be blown to bits and start fertilizing the lawn.

stay safe.
 

Blk97F150

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
1,179
Location
Virginia
This is a situation that warrants the proper application of an "Impact Deterent Device", formally known as a "Hickory Shampoo". If they try to take it, make 'em pay for it.

Hey batter batter, hey batter... hey batter..... SWING!!

:eek:
 

6L6GC

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2007
Messages
492
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
During and after the storm

I open carried everywhere I went because that is what I always did BEFORE the storm came. After the storm I open carried in and around the house because that is what I always did BEFORE the storm got here. I didn't (need to) change my carry routine because of wind/rain.

As for using deadly force to stop the theft of property, its not legal and could get you in trouble. However, using deadly force to defend yourself from someone who was attempting to steal something and threatened to kill you to do it, well.... that's a different story. Anyone who tells the police that they shot/killed some one for stealing "stuff" is just plain old fashioned stupid.

roN
 

skidmark

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Messages
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Location
Valhalla
What if that generator is powering a dialysis machine or refrigerator containing medication needing to be kept cold? Would that not be defending life?

:)

NO.

You can live for quite some time without your dialysis machine running, and the same with meds that need constant temperature control. Further, there are ways and means of getting the person and the needed machinery/supplies together within the window of opportunity. Most folks who are that dependant on life-support systems are pre-registered with the police, fire and EMS - and if they are not they need to fix that ASAP!

Just to further reduce your scenario - even ventilators come with battery backup - ever since the days of the "iron lungs". And folks who are extremely dependant on O[SUB]2[/SUB] have bottles on hand in case the electrically operated machine they usually rely on goes on the fritz or the power goes out.

Now I have a question for you- why are you trying so hard to come up with a scenario where you might be justified/excused for shooting/killing someone who was stealing your stuff? Are you that hard up to cap someone? Did you lose one of your computer shooter games and are looking to reestablish your cred/reputation with your on-line "buds"? Seriously - what's driving this desire to find a way to legally shoot someone?

stay safe.
 

mobeewan

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Joined
Oct 5, 2007
Messages
652
Location
Hampton, Va, ,
I should have been clearer. I did mean my comments to address some of the posts after the original.

I believe the theft of the generator, absent threats to my person or family, does not justify deadly force. I don't see it as "necessary to survival". Your mileage may vary; we're not all the same person.

And as I said, I am not passing judgment, I'm simply asking folks to think things all the way through and consider whether they really mean what they posted.

I would think medical necessity for having the generators as in my father's and my case would constitue a threat to our well being and survival if someone was to steal them. I'll risk an assault with a deadly weapon charge when facing a jury for chasing some miscreant off. I would only pull the trigger if they pull a weapon. I should be justified then to escalate to the next level.
 

mobeewan

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Joined
Oct 5, 2007
Messages
652
Location
Hampton, Va, ,
Homes, businesses burglarized during Hurricane Irene

By Ashley Kelly, akelly@dailypress.com | 757-247-4778

4:28 p.m. EDT, September 6, 2011

As Hurricane Irene swept through the region last month, police say some took advantage of conditions by burglarizing homes and businesses in Newport News and Hampton.
There were 21 burglaries in Hampton during Hurricane Irene on Aug. 26-28, compared with 16 in Newport News, according to police.


http://www.dailypress.com/news/crime/dp-nws-irene-breakins-20110906,0,3574656.story
 

skidmark

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I had a more severe storm situation in my mind, where power is out for a week or more and emergency services either aren't available or can't get to you. Something like Katrina. A situation where you are on your own for survival until its over and things start being restored to normal.

If you recall, I suggested that folks that are highly dependent on electricity and machines need to be very proactive in dealing with approaching storms and other signs of impending doom. Some folks do need to get out well ahead of the normal evacuation curve. Your failure to plan ahead is not my problem, but it may create problems for emergency workers that could have been avoided.

And please do not use Hurricane Katrina as an example, at least not how New Orleans responded to it. There was plenty of advance notce and plenty of information to suggest they would get their clocks cleaned. Both the city government and the citizens dithered until it was too late. If you want to use Katrina, look at Alabama or Mississippi - they weren't perfect but they had a plan and implemented it well ahead of the actual disaster. So did the individual citizens of those states.



That was my first post in this thread.... I don't think that is "trying hard". Nor am I looking for legal advice on the internet. We've met before several times, but with a comment like that, it is obvious you don't know me.

Sorry you do not recognize hyperbole when it rears its head. I have no desire to tell you what to do, or what not to do. I will, however, try to get you to think about the consequences of what you say and do. If that's legal advice then I'm happy with that. I'm concerned that those who are actively against letting us keep what rights and freedoms we do have, let alone working to take many if not all of them away from us, will point to your words as justification for their efforts.

I stand by my question - why are you looking for an excuse to cap someone? You, and several others seem all too eager to pull your heater and threaten folks if not actually shoot someone. If you believe I have misunderstood you, then answer my question and explain how I'm misunderstanding your words.

stay safe.
 

Marco

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
3,905
Location
Greene County
said:
Shorty after the power went off, two armed men broke into a house & pistol whipped and robbed the occupant and ransacked the house.

This is why my dogs have complete access to the home/yard.
It baffles me when I see folks with dogs and they are chained or fenced in the yard with no access to the occupied dwelling.
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
What's with the ad hominem attack? This is beneath what I'd expect from you!
He's just cranky this week M. He does have a point though. You and ODA are the only ones that have suggested something that is realistic for 99.9% of property theft situations. Why some of us are so anxious to use what should be the very last resort, when it's a lot simpler....not to mention legal and well within most moral doctrines, to just let the dog run them off or knock the hell out of them. A long while back I said something to the effect that a punch in the mouth was the ultimate argument and Nova was one of those that got the vapors over it. That unfortunately has become a modern mindset, even among Leo's. We're far to intelligent for violence, we'll just shoot them. I am getting a little old to be wrestling around with people so ODA's ax handle has gotten to be standard equipment.
 

Marco

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Greene County
Dogs (which are deemed property in VA) have every right to defend property as long as they stay on the property of the owner to do so.
This is why many homeowners and businesss' employee k-9's to patrol, they can do things to trespassers we legally can't.


&

Using physical force to expel (thieves) trespassers is legal, just the force needs to be tempered.
How do you think bouncers get away with doing their job.



D,
I know P had a vaild point but the personal attack was unneeded, his points would be better receieved without them.
 
Last edited:

Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
Sooooo.... you're on your own property and someone attempts to steal the generator that is providing power to your fridge, freezer and lights. Do you just stand there and watch them cut the chain and haul it away -- because the theft of that property does not constitute a direct, immediate or serious threat?"

Really?

Yeah, but after they've loaded into their truck and are trying to drive off with it, and you stand in your driveway to ask them to please put it back, and they try to run you over--that IS an imminent threat.

You have to "think outside the box"... ;)
 

Sangre

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
53
Location
Virginia
A generator was stolen the day after in my neighborhood, I didn't see it myself but spoke to the owner apparently in the middle of the day 4 guys pulled up in a truck with guys sitting in the truck bed, they hopped out grabbed the generator and drove off. He said they had to drive through two peoples yards to get around a downed tree to even get to it and to leave. After Isabel most of my neighborhood was without power for about 2 weeks, and there where 2 generators stolen that I know of. I was worried about looters during the storm but luckily that was the worst of it that I'm aware of near me.
 

Last Knight

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Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
31
Location
Hampton Roads, VA
A reason to run the generator in the back yard if possible! Even better if you have a locking gate/fence. :)

(Yes I know people can walk a few yards further and still steal it, but it would help discourage opportunistic thieves).

Or drive through the fence. :)

But space permitting, I don't know why anyone would choose to run their generator in the front yard, open to everyone. It's a valuable piece of equipment; why leave it out in the open like that?
 

mobeewan

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Joined
Oct 5, 2007
Messages
652
Location
Hampton, Va, ,
We live in the city on a cul-de-sac. My dad's yard is 5 sided and one of his rear property lines parallels a private road and a bad neighborhood. There is no fence along that property at this time and people walk through his yard as a short cut. I'm not leaving a generator in his back yard. I live across the street from him and my back yard borders a main 4 lane divided highway that runs from one city to the next. Only makes sense to chain them in the front yards where dad and I can watch out for each other. He would have the daytime watch and I would have the overnight watch since I work evenings. It also pays to share with the neighbors for those extra sets of eyes.
 

skidmark

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Jan 15, 2007
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We live in the city on a cul-de-sac. My dad's yard is 5 sided and one of his rear property lines parallels a private road and a bad neighborhood. There is no fence along that property at this time and people walk through his yard as a short cut. I'm not leaving a generator in his back yard. I live across the street from him and my back yard borders a main 4 lane divided highway that runs from one city to the next. Only makes sense to chain them in the front yards where dad and I can watch out for each other. He would have the daytime watch and I would have the overnight watch since I work evenings. It also pays to share with the neighbors for those extra sets of eyes.

This is totally unfair!:cuss:

You have actually considered the situation, assessed important variables, run probable consequences through, analyzed both financial and social cost-benefit factors, and put the results together into a plan. Heck, you even imply that neighbors who get electricity from you will only do so in exchange for contributing to the security of the source of electricity.:banghead:

You are not supposed to do that! You are supposed to demonstrate kneejerk reactions based on emotionalism and the theory of forced redistribution of other people's assets. Didn't you get the memo? Whatshisname even read it out loud on the TV just a few says ago.

stay safe.
 
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