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Thread: 1776 Defend me because I won't defend myself?

  1. #1
    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    1776 Defend me because I won't defend myself?

    I thought this was an interesting article:

    http://news.yahoo.com/1775-document-...162254768.html

    LITITZ, Pa. (AP) In a fledgling nation hungry for men to fight in the American Revolution, conscientious objectors were frequently greeted with scorn and their loyalty was questioned.

    As war approached, leaders in Pennsylvania's Lancaster County sought to ease tensions by urging the growing number of German immigrants with religious objections to war to demonstrate their patriotism by giving as much money as they could afford to the revolutionary cause.

    The proposition is spelled out in a July 11, 1775, public notice known as a "broadside," which is on display at the Moravian Archives & Museum here. Experts recently confirmed it as the only known English-language copy.
    ...

    The 236-year-old broadside, yellowed but still clearly legible, urges citizens whose "religious scruples" prevent them from bearing arms to contribute toward the "necessary and unavoidable" expenses of the larger community.
    ...
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Sounds to me more like "I will take it upon myself to fire on your behalf since I believe firing to be necessary and you don't. I know better than you."

    Like a politician - send me money so I can be elected to tell you what to do.

    I prefer to allow those who choose not to use violence, even when I believe it to be a morally justified act, to make that choice for themselves.

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Sounds more like "I understand and respect your religious convictions. If you support the cause I am involved in I ask that you show your support via contributions to help defray the financial costs of this endeavor. And if you do not contribute I will take that as a sign that you do not support my cause."

    There were several debates undertaken within the Quaker community during WWI and WWII about contributing to the war effort via the purchase of War Stamps and War Bonds. Because there was no way to separate money used to buy food, or clothing, or medical expenses from money used to buy guns and ammunition, the purchase of these stamps/bonds was seen as a violation of the religious principle of pacifism. Many solved the dilema of wanting to support the country by contributing to The American Friends Relief Society, the Red Cross, the Salvation Army and similar agencies. Although not existing as such during the Revolutionary period, many conscientious objectors enlisted during WWI and WWII as medics/corpsmen - and the tradition continues to this day.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    During the Civil War in the North, if you were drafted you could pay a certain amount to get out of it. COs who serve as Medics are among the bravest on the battlefield. There is no dishonor in that. Refusing to serve in any capacity is another story.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    During the Civil War in the North, if you were drafted you could pay a certain amount to get out of it. COs who serve as Medics are among the bravest on the battlefield. There is no dishonor in that. Refusing to serve in any capacity is another story.
    My understanding is quite similar. Many CO's that served as medics/corpsmen were decorated for extreme bravery on the battle field. Some placed their own bodies in the line of fire to protect those whom they were bandaging.

    None I heard of were ever accused of cowardice. They were doubly brave. They faced the battlefield and those who tried to disparage their religious convictions.

    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

    Politicians should serve two terms, one in office and one in prison.(borrowed from RioKid)

  6. #6
    Regular Member sraacke's Avatar
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    I can't get my mind around the idea of how someone who is opposed to killing or war would be able to support such an effort by either giving money or even serving as a medic or clergy.
    To me it's like being asked to participate in stomping kittens to death. I'm like, Hell no I'm not going to stomp kittens to death. That's just wrong. So then someone argues, "Well, if you won't personally stomp the kittens will you at least give money to support the stomping of kittens or even enlist in the Kitten Stomping Corps as a Ortho assistant? Your job would be to make sure we have comfortable socks, proper fitting boots and maybe even Dr Shools comfort insoles in our kitten stomping boots. We want to be Gelling when we are stomping kittens to death."
    But we expect to tell people "Hey, we are going to shoot or blow up these other particular people for such and such reason. Since you have religious reasons forbiding you from blowing their heads off or blasting them into idybity bits how about helping pay for our bullets and grenades. Heck you can even join up to work in the hospitals where people who were shot while trying to shoot those other people will need caring for. What do you say? Sound like fun?"
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  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Yale -

    Much of what you say rings true and has great import. But remember, there folks were asked to contribute. There is nothing in history that I am aware of that indicates they were penalized, or had their houses and shops burned, if they decided not to contribute. If those folks were going to benefit from the creation of a new country and a "new" form of government then they should be given a chance to support that effort. But since the revolution had not yet been won it was made more voluntary than dealing with the tax collector.

    Conscientious objectors are not forced to join the military, but they are permitted to do so if they choose to. I've served with a few and respect them highly for both their moral principles and their efforts to find a way to serve within the restrictions those principles place on them.

    In the civil War a draftee could buy his way out of service for $100 cash because that was often enough money to use as a bonus to recruit four men. We are still using financial incentives to get people to join and to reenlist - because it's effective.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    There is a vast distinction between the birth of a great nation and stomping kittens.
    Actually, there is little difference until the revolution is over and your side has won. If the revolution had been lost everybody on the side opposing England would be considered the moral amnd legal equivalent of someone who stomped kittens. Wasn't it Franklin who reminded the other members of Congress that "We must hang together or we will assuredly hang separately"?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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