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Thread: Possible loop hole for restaurant carry?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Large Caliber Kick's Avatar
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    Possible loop hole for restaurant carry?

    I was just thinking that private clubs can extend certain privilages to their members while within the confines of the club such as being able to smoke indoors. If someone were to establish a restaurant with a bar similar to Applebees or O'Charlies and charged a minor annual membership fee does anybody think it might be sufficient to get around that issue?

    I know it's a streach, but I figured It was worth a thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Large Caliber Kick View Post
    I was just thinking that private clubs can extend certain privilages to their members while within the confines of the club such as being able to smoke indoors. If someone were to establish a restaurant with a bar similar to Applebees or O'Charlies and charged a minor annual membership fee does anybody think it might be sufficient to get around that issue?

    I know it's a streach, but I figured It was worth a thread.
    It probably would be quicker just to wait for December 1st.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gary737 View Post
    It probably would be quicker just to wait for December 1st.
    The change I believe is for concealed carry only, do you have a link to the new statute? I tried to find it the other day.

    For me I don't have a problem with it the way it is, except for it is a violation of 2A and property rights. Property owners should have complete control of the rules for their business, without gov interference and of course it is a infringement on the right to bear arms. I simply make a point to go to restaurants that do not serve alcohol, there are plenty of them. I have more problem with the 1,000 foot federal law for schools. If a OC or CC is in a city whether the restaurant is serving alcohol or not, it is likely within 1,000 feet of a school. The federal includes day car and this pretty much rules out carry. Fortunately local and state police do not seem to be enforcing the federal law to the letter, but it is always a chance.

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    Regular Member dmatting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gary737 View Post
    It probably would be quicker just to wait for December 1st.
    Nothing is going to happen on December 1st that is going to allow anyone to carry - openly or concealed - into a restaurant that serves alcohol. That bill did not pass.

    Also, IMO, the statute is pretty clear - if alcohol is being sold and consumed, then you can't carry there:
    14‑269.3. Carrying weapons into assemblies and establishments where alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed.

    (a) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry any gun, rifle, or pistol into any assembly where a fee has been charged for admission thereto, or into any establishment in which alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

    (b) This section shall not apply to the following:

    (1) A person exempted from the provisions of G.S. 14‑269;

    (2) The owner or lessee of the premises or business establishment;

    (3) A person participating in the event, if he is carrying a gun, rifle, or pistol with the permission of the owner, lessee, or person or organization sponsoring the event; and

    (4) A person registered or hired as a security guard by the owner, lessee, or person or organization sponsoring the event. (1977, c. 1016, s. 1; 1981, c. 412, s. 4, c. 747, s. 66; 1993, c. 539, s. 165; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c).)
    (emphasis mine, above)
    Last edited by dmatting; 09-06-2011 at 08:50 AM.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmatting View Post
    Nothing is going to happen on December 1st that is going to allow anyone to carry - openly or concealed - into a restaurant that serves alcohol. That bill did not pass.

    Also, IMO, the statute is pretty clear - if alcohol is being sold and consumed, then you can't carry there:


    (emphasis mine, above)
    That explains why I could not find it.

    Any info on the bill number... I would like to see who voted against it.

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    Regular Member dmatting's Avatar
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    HB111 - passed the house, dead in senate commitee.

    Half of HB111 (CC in parks) was passed through HB650, which will be going into effect on Dec 1st.
    Last edited by dmatting; 09-06-2011 at 09:35 AM.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmatting View Post
    HB111 - passed the house, dead in senate commitee.

    Half of HB111 (CC in parks) was passed through HB650, which will be going into effect on Dec 1st.
    Thank you that helped a lot, here are the members on that committee responsible, I will certainly let them know my displeasure.

    Members
    Co-Chairman Sen. Austin M. Allran
    Co-Chairman Sen. Warren Daniel
    Co-Chairman Sen. E. S. (Buck) Newton
    Members Sen. Doug Berger, Sen. Stan Bingham, Sen. Harris Blake, Sen. Dan Blue, Sen. Debbie A. Clary, Sen. Charlie S. Dannelly, Sen. Jim Davis, Sen. Don East, Sen. James Forrester, Sen. Fletcher L. Hartsell, Jr., Sen. Ed Jones, Sen. Floyd B. McKissick, Jr., Sen. Tommy Tucker, Sen. Don Vaughan

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmatting View Post
    HB111 - passed the house, dead in senate commitee.

    Half of HB111 (CC in parks) was passed through HB650, which will be going into effect on Dec 1st.
    FYI, It's still alive for the upcoming short session. It is not dead in the Senate Comm, it was just never passed out of committee. When they come back, be ready to push hard for it.

    To the OP, looks like you'll have to make them all security guards. Not sure how the insurance company would feel about that. lol

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    Regular Member Large Caliber Kick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    To the OP, looks like you'll have to make them all security guards. Not sure how the insurance company would feel about that. lol
    While that would be very cost prohibitive, the look on a BG's face after seeing fifty people with security badges in one room would be priceless.

    I do agree, probly better to wait on the bill to pass instead of opening a modern speak-easy.
    Last edited by Large Caliber Kick; 09-06-2011 at 11:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    ...... I have more problem with the 1,000 foot federal law for schools. If a OC or CC is in a city whether the restaurant is serving alcohol or not, it is likely within 1,000 feet of a school. The federal includes day car and this pretty much rules out carry. Fortunately local and state police do not seem to be enforcing the federal law to the letter, but it is always a chance.
    If you have a CHP issued from the state that the Gun Free School Zone is located in, you are exempt from the Federal Gun Free School Zone law.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gary737 View Post
    If you have a CHP issued from the state that the Gun Free School Zone is located in, you are exempt from the Federal Gun Free School Zone law.
    If I remember right there has to be specific state law allowing concealed carry on a campus. In NC unless it changed recently there is no such exemption. This was one of the points against Obama when he was running he wanted to extend the 1000 foot to 5000 feet. Fortunately he has not been able to get that done.

    I looked up the federal law and here is how the exemption.

    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located

    The North Carolina concealed carry law does not licensed to do so(possess a firearm on a school campus or within a gun free zone. I guess it can be interpreted both ways but I asked a magistrate and they said flat out no. The law does exempt private property, so IMO that would include a business within the Zone. I have to say I have never heard of anyone being hassled for the federal law, but there is always a first.

    My understanding is the states that are exempt under this statute concealed carry is allowed on campus. If there is a ruling, point me in the right direction.

    Nope Concealed carry is a definate no no by NC concealed carry law, and the federal law combined.

    Although a person may have a permit to carry a concealed weapon, permittees are not

    authorized to carry the permitted weapon anywhere they desire. The weapon may not be carried in

    the following areas:

    15

    1. any area prohibited by N.C.G.S. §§ 14-269.3, 14-269.4, 14-277.2, or 120-32.1.

    (school grounds, areas where alcohol is sold and consumed, state property, legislative

    buildings, and public gatherings, such as parades);

    2. any area prohibited by 18 USC § 922 or any other federal law;
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 09-06-2011 at 08:37 PM.

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    Regular Member Large Caliber Kick's Avatar
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    It is my understanding the CHP exempts one from not being able to come within 1000ft of a school while carrying. I frequently hafe to take the long way around certain routes in order to stay legal however sometimes there is only one way in/out of my destination that passes right in front of a school and I just have to keep my fingers crossed. I wouldn't reccomend parking on the same side of the road as the school CHP or not.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Large Caliber Kick View Post
    It is my understanding the CHP exempts one from not being able to come within 1000ft of a school while carrying. I frequently hafe to take the long way around certain routes in order to stay legal however sometimes there is only one way in/out of my destination that passes right in front of a school and I just have to keep my fingers crossed. I wouldn't reccomend parking on the same side of the road as the school CHP or not.
    I have not heard of it being enforced but the North Carolina statute is very clear. If it is a federal law then it is a no no. I had asked a magistrate that question as well as a few others, she said it was a clear no no. I would not want to test it.

    I did find a way to get around the gun free zone. The federal law only applies to guns in interstate commerce, meaning a gun manufactured in North Carolina does not apply, so the North Carolina law does not apply. Guns still would be exempt from the campus though.

    Para is located in Pineville NC and makes a 1911, it would be exempt from the gun free zone. Haven't researched the cost yet.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 09-06-2011 at 09:05 PM.

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    WW, I think your ideas on the Gun Free Schools are a bit off. A Carry permit is a valid permit to carry in the school zone in NC, just not on school property. Big difference there. And you can carry, you can even discharge a firearm on your own property within the school zone.


    The Gun Free School Zones Act states:[6]
    (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

    (B) Subparagraph (A) DOES NOT APPLY to the possession of a firearm—
    (i) on PRIVATE PROPERTY NOT PART OF SCHOOL GROUNDS;
    (ii) IF THE INDIVIDUAL POSSESSING THE FIREARM IS LICENSED TO DO SO BY THE STATE IN WHICH THE SCHOOL ZONE IS LOCATED OR a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
    (iii) that is— (I) not loaded; and (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
    (v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
    (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
    (vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

    (3) (A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B), it shall be unlawful for any person, knowingly or with reckless disregard for the safety of another, to discharge or attempt to discharge a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the person knows is a school zone. (B) Subparagraph (A) DOES NOT APPLY TO THE DISCHARGE OF A FIREARM—
    (i) ON PRIVATE PROPERTY NOT PART OF SCHOOL GROUNDS;
    (ii) as part of a program approved by a school in the school zone, by an individual who is participating in the program;
    (iii) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in a school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual; or
    (iv) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity.

    (4) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed as preempting or preventing a State or local government from enacting a statute establishing gun free school zones as provided in this subsection.
    [edit]


    Check this letter from the BATF stating that a carry permit from the state the school zone is in exempts you from the GFSZA.


    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...za1995_ccw.pdf

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    WW, I think your ideas on the Gun Free Schools are a bit off. A Carry permit is a valid permit to carry in the school zone in NC, just not on school property. Big difference there. And you can carry, you can even discharge a firearm on your own property within the school zone.


    The Gun Free School Zones Act states:[6]
    (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

    (B) Subparagraph (A) DOES NOT APPLY to the possession of a firearm—
    (i) on PRIVATE PROPERTY NOT PART OF SCHOOL GROUNDS;
    (ii) IF THE INDIVIDUAL POSSESSING THE FIREARM IS LICENSED TO DO SO BY THE STATE IN WHICH THE SCHOOL ZONE IS LOCATED OR a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
    (iii) that is— (I) not loaded; and (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
    (v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
    (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
    (vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

    (3) (A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B), it shall be unlawful for any person, knowingly or with reckless disregard for the safety of another, to discharge or attempt to discharge a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the person knows is a school zone. (B) Subparagraph (A) DOES NOT APPLY TO THE DISCHARGE OF A FIREARM—
    (i) ON PRIVATE PROPERTY NOT PART OF SCHOOL GROUNDS;
    (ii) as part of a program approved by a school in the school zone, by an individual who is participating in the program;
    (iii) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in a school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual; or
    (iv) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity.

    (4) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed as preempting or preventing a State or local government from enacting a statute establishing gun free school zones as provided in this subsection.
    [edit]


    Check this letter from the BATF stating that a carry permit from the state the school zone is in exempts you from the GFSZA.


    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...za1995_ccw.pdf
    I read that and the it says licensed to do so, the NC concealed carry law not only does it not license a person to carry in a gun free zone or on campus it goes further to state a person cannot carry a concealed firearm in violation of any federal law. The gun free zone is clearly a federal law, it is the reason I asked a magistrate. I won't risk it, but others have to make their own choice, or interpretation. If it was a blanket get out of jail free card for concealed carry permit holders it would state that, I would think. Actually the federal law does not even use the words concealed carry permit, just licensed to do so.

    I guess I should not even have brought it up, as this is not worth arguing, each individual has to be able to weigh their own priorities or interpretations if they are not clear. Sorry to the OP for getting off topic.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 09-06-2011 at 10:25 PM.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Large Caliber Kick's Avatar
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    WalkingWolf, no need to apologize. This ended up being a very good discussion and I think I learned something here today. The original topic was probably a vivid dream at best.

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    WW,did you click the link? The GFSZ has nothing to do with being on campus. So the restriction from having firearms on campus is a non issue.

    From the BATF

    "A license qualifies as an exception only if the law of the State or political subdivision requires law enforcement authorities to verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license.

    The law clearly provides that in order to qualify as an exception to the general prohibitions of the Gun-Free School Zones Act, the license must be issued by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of that State. A concealed weapons license or permit from any otper State would not satisfy the criteria set forth in the law.

    For purposes of the GFSZA, in order to fall within this limited exception, the permit must be issued by the State itself. Accordingly, your possession of a Virginia concealed weapons permit would not exempt you from the prohibitions of the Gun-Free School Zones Act in States that honor other State permits by legal agreement."

    The agency charged with enforcing this ridiculous law feels that a concealed weapons license from the state that the GFSZ is in qualifies as an exception. You can do what you wish with this info. As for me, I drive right by a school on my wat to work every day. Does not bother me in the least. I'll have to check to be sure, but there is a pawn/gun shop very close to the school. And seeing that the test is not the school zone markings on the road, but 1000' from the property line, I bet it's in the school zone. I was not arrested by the cop that talked to my while I was OC'ing in the shop.

    My personal feeling is that you would have to really get into a screwed up mess to have to worry about this. The average beat cop does not know much about firearms law, much less an obscure Fed law.

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    So let me get this straight: If I wait till December 1, I can carry within 1000 feet of a school that serves alcohol, and can fire my gun inside the restaurant as long as they are private property?
    Or did the thread somehow get hijacked?
    I think I'll simply continue to legally transit the GFSZ while remaining off school property (NC only) whatever the date is.
    Thanks chiefjason for the BATF letter.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    You may NOT carry a firearm--in any configuration and regardless of having a permit or not--in NC in an establishment that serves AND sells alcohol.

    The proposed law that addresses this is HB 111, and passed the House with a supermajority so it carries over to next session (Spring 2012) and will most likley also pass the Senate if it comes out of Committee. And Gov. Bev will almost CERTAINLY sign it--to veto it would be two huge political strikes against her. First it would make her already low possibilities for re-election in 2012 nearly zero, and second, it would reflect VERY badly on her administration with regards to their prevailing attitude toward gun rights in their pending SAF lawsuit regarding the "State of Emergency Ban".

    Bev is laying low with regards to gun rights restrictions. Given her 'druthers, she would turn NC into a BBQ-flavored version of NJ, but there is too much riding on gun rights in NC at this time for her to attempt such foolishness.

    There seem to be a LOT of people who think that HB650 included "restaurant carry" (including my father-in-law, I found out this weekend), and we need to be sure to get the word out that it does NOT, or there are going to be a LOT of people getting busted for this come December. And THAT would make getting HB111 much more difficult to pass in the spring...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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  20. #20
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    You may NOT carry a firearm--in any configuration and regardless of having a permit or not--in NC in an establishment that serves AND sells alcohol.

    The proposed law that addresses this is HB 111, and passed the House with a supermajority so it carries over to next session (Spring 2012) and will most likley also pass the Senate if it comes out of Committee. And Gov. Bev will almost CERTAINLY sign it--to veto it would be two huge political strikes against her. First it would make her already low possibilities for re-election in 2012 nearly zero, and second, it would reflect VERY badly on her administration with regards to their prevailing attitude toward gun rights in their pending SAF lawsuit regarding the "State of Emergency Ban".

    Bev is laying low with regards to gun rights restrictions. Given her 'druthers, she would turn NC into a BBQ-flavored version of NJ, but there is too much riding on gun rights in NC at this time for her to attempt such foolishness.

    There seem to be a LOT of people who think that HB650 included "restaurant carry" (including my father-in-law, I found out this weekend), and we need to be sure to get the word out that it does NOT, or there are going to be a LOT of people getting busted for this come December. And THAT would make getting HB111 much more difficult to pass in the spring...
    Well I certainly hope that it gets through, but it will not make much difference for me. I intentionally let my permit lapse. I never carry concealed only open and it just seemed stupid to hand the state money for something I don't use. I don't drink and there are plenty of restaurants that do not serve alcohol. On a personal level it is not a big deal for me. I also find it a small victory for rights as it still requires getting a permission slip to exercise a right. And it still does not allow the property owner to make his own decisions when it comes to 2A. I hope it is one step closer though to eliminating the restriction period, whether open or concealed.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Large Caliber Kick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bc.cruiser View Post
    So let me get this straight: If I wait till December 1, I can carry within 1000 feet of a school that serves alcohol, and can fire my gun inside the restaurant as long as they are private property?


    Well put sir!

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