I was just thinking that private clubs can extend certain privilages to their members while within the confines of the club such as being able to smoke indoors. If someone were to establish a restaurant with a bar similar to Applebees or O'Charlies and charged a minor annual membership fee does anybody think it might be sufficient to get around that issue?
I know it's a streach, but I figured It was worth a thread.
For me I don't have a problem with it the way it is, except for it is a violation of 2A and property rights. Property owners should have complete control of the rules for their business, without gov interference and of course it is a infringement on the right to bear arms. I simply make a point to go to restaurants that do not serve alcohol, there are plenty of them. I have more problem with the 1,000 foot federal law for schools. If a OC or CC is in a city whether the restaurant is serving alcohol or not, it is likely within 1,000 feet of a school. The federal includes day car and this pretty much rules out carry. Fortunately local and state police do not seem to be enforcing the federal law to the letter, but it is always a chance.
Also, IMO, the statute is pretty clear - if alcohol is being sold and consumed, then you can't carry there:
(emphasis mine, above)14‑269.3. Carrying weapons into assemblies and establishments where alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed.
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry any gun, rifle, or pistol into any assembly where a fee has been charged for admission thereto, or into any establishment in which alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.
(b) This section shall not apply to the following:
(1) A person exempted from the provisions of G.S. 14‑269;
(2) The owner or lessee of the premises or business establishment;
(3) A person participating in the event, if he is carrying a gun, rifle, or pistol with the permission of the owner, lessee, or person or organization sponsoring the event; and
(4) A person registered or hired as a security guard by the owner, lessee, or person or organization sponsoring the event. (1977, c. 1016, s. 1; 1981, c. 412, s. 4, c. 747, s. 66; 1993, c. 539, s. 165; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c).)
Last edited by dmatting; 09-06-2011 at 07:50 AM.
HB111 - passed the house, dead in senate commitee.
Half of HB111 (CC in parks) was passed through HB650, which will be going into effect on Dec 1st.
Last edited by dmatting; 09-06-2011 at 08:35 AM.
Co-Chairman Sen. Austin M. Allran
Co-Chairman Sen. Warren Daniel
Co-Chairman Sen. E. S. (Buck) Newton
Members Sen. Doug Berger, Sen. Stan Bingham, Sen. Harris Blake, Sen. Dan Blue, Sen. Debbie A. Clary, Sen. Charlie S. Dannelly, Sen. Jim Davis, Sen. Don East, Sen. James Forrester, Sen. Fletcher L. Hartsell, Jr., Sen. Ed Jones, Sen. Floyd B. McKissick, Jr., Sen. Tommy Tucker, Sen. Don Vaughan
To the OP, looks like you'll have to make them all security guards. Not sure how the insurance company would feel about that. lol
Last edited by Large Caliber Kick; 09-06-2011 at 10:55 AM.
I looked up the federal law and here is how the exemption.
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located
The North Carolina concealed carry law does not licensed to do so(possess a firearm on a school campus or within a gun free zone. I guess it can be interpreted both ways but I asked a magistrate and they said flat out no. The law does exempt private property, so IMO that would include a business within the Zone. I have to say I have never heard of anyone being hassled for the federal law, but there is always a first.
My understanding is the states that are exempt under this statute concealed carry is allowed on campus. If there is a ruling, point me in the right direction.
Nope Concealed carry is a definate no no by NC concealed carry law, and the federal law combined.
Although a person may have a permit to carry a concealed weapon, permittees are not
authorized to carry the permitted weapon anywhere they desire. The weapon may not be carried in
the following areas:
1. any area prohibited by N.C.G.S. §§ 14-269.3, 14-269.4, 14-277.2, or 120-32.1.
(school grounds, areas where alcohol is sold and consumed, state property, legislative
buildings, and public gatherings, such as parades);
2. any area prohibited by 18 USC § 922 or any other federal law;
Last edited by WalkingWolf; 09-06-2011 at 07:37 PM.
It is my understanding the CHP exempts one from not being able to come within 1000ft of a school while carrying. I frequently hafe to take the long way around certain routes in order to stay legal however sometimes there is only one way in/out of my destination that passes right in front of a school and I just have to keep my fingers crossed. I wouldn't reccomend parking on the same side of the road as the school CHP or not.
I did find a way to get around the gun free zone. The federal law only applies to guns in interstate commerce, meaning a gun manufactured in North Carolina does not apply, so the North Carolina law does not apply. Guns still would be exempt from the campus though.
Para is located in Pineville NC and makes a 1911, it would be exempt from the gun free zone. Haven't researched the cost yet.
Last edited by WalkingWolf; 09-06-2011 at 08:05 PM.
WW, I think your ideas on the Gun Free Schools are a bit off. A Carry permit is a valid permit to carry in the school zone in NC, just not on school property. Big difference there. And you can carry, you can even discharge a firearm on your own property within the school zone.
The Gun Free School Zones Act states:
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) DOES NOT APPLY to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on PRIVATE PROPERTY NOT PART OF SCHOOL GROUNDS;
(ii) IF THE INDIVIDUAL POSSESSING THE FIREARM IS LICENSED TO DO SO BY THE STATE IN WHICH THE SCHOOL ZONE IS LOCATED OR a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is— (I) not loaded; and (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.
(3) (A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B), it shall be unlawful for any person, knowingly or with reckless disregard for the safety of another, to discharge or attempt to discharge a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the person knows is a school zone. (B) Subparagraph (A) DOES NOT APPLY TO THE DISCHARGE OF A FIREARM—
(i) ON PRIVATE PROPERTY NOT PART OF SCHOOL GROUNDS;
(ii) as part of a program approved by a school in the school zone, by an individual who is participating in the program;
(iii) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in a school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual; or
(iv) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity.
(4) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed as preempting or preventing a State or local government from enacting a statute establishing gun free school zones as provided in this subsection.
Check this letter from the BATF stating that a carry permit from the state the school zone is in exempts you from the GFSZA.
I guess I should not even have brought it up, as this is not worth arguing, each individual has to be able to weigh their own priorities or interpretations if they are not clear. Sorry to the OP for getting off topic.
Last edited by WalkingWolf; 09-06-2011 at 09:25 PM.
WalkingWolf, no need to apologize. This ended up being a very good discussion and I think I learned something here today. The original topic was probably a vivid dream at best.
WW,did you click the link? The GFSZ has nothing to do with being on campus. So the restriction from having firearms on campus is a non issue.
From the BATF
"A license qualifies as an exception only if the law of the State or political subdivision requires law enforcement authorities to verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license.
The law clearly provides that in order to qualify as an exception to the general prohibitions of the Gun-Free School Zones Act, the license must be issued by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of that State. A concealed weapons license or permit from any otper State would not satisfy the criteria set forth in the law.
For purposes of the GFSZA, in order to fall within this limited exception, the permit must be issued by the State itself. Accordingly, your possession of a Virginia concealed weapons permit would not exempt you from the prohibitions of the Gun-Free School Zones Act in States that honor other State permits by legal agreement."
The agency charged with enforcing this ridiculous law feels that a concealed weapons license from the state that the GFSZ is in qualifies as an exception. You can do what you wish with this info. As for me, I drive right by a school on my wat to work every day. Does not bother me in the least. I'll have to check to be sure, but there is a pawn/gun shop very close to the school. And seeing that the test is not the school zone markings on the road, but 1000' from the property line, I bet it's in the school zone. I was not arrested by the cop that talked to my while I was OC'ing in the shop.
My personal feeling is that you would have to really get into a screwed up mess to have to worry about this. The average beat cop does not know much about firearms law, much less an obscure Fed law.
So let me get this straight: If I wait till December 1, I can carry within 1000 feet of a school that serves alcohol, and can fire my gun inside the restaurant as long as they are private property?
Or did the thread somehow get hijacked?
I think I'll simply continue to legally transit the GFSZ while remaining off school property (NC only) whatever the date is.
Thanks chiefjason for the BATF letter.
You may NOT carry a firearm--in any configuration and regardless of having a permit or not--in NC in an establishment that serves AND sells alcohol.
The proposed law that addresses this is HB 111, and passed the House with a supermajority so it carries over to next session (Spring 2012) and will most likley also pass the Senate if it comes out of Committee. And Gov. Bev will almost CERTAINLY sign it--to veto it would be two huge political strikes against her. First it would make her already low possibilities for re-election in 2012 nearly zero, and second, it would reflect VERY badly on her administration with regards to their prevailing attitude toward gun rights in their pending SAF lawsuit regarding the "State of Emergency Ban".
Bev is laying low with regards to gun rights restrictions. Given her 'druthers, she would turn NC into a BBQ-flavored version of NJ, but there is too much riding on gun rights in NC at this time for her to attempt such foolishness.
There seem to be a LOT of people who think that HB650 included "restaurant carry" (including my father-in-law, I found out this weekend), and we need to be sure to get the word out that it does NOT, or there are going to be a LOT of people getting busted for this come December. And THAT would make getting HB111 much more difficult to pass in the spring...
It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
--Barry Goldwater, 1964