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OC Incident at Scottish Festival

hgreen

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Messages
470
Location
Centreville, VA
Here's a letter I've sent off to the event directors and property owners of the http://www.vascottishgames.org/Index.html.
Will post responses when I receive them. I am really hoping to avoid legal confrontations, just want them to clearly post their policies so this won't happen to anyone else.

to
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info@vascottishgames.org,
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rb@greatmeadow.org,
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ks@greatmeadow.org
cc
sheriff.fox@fauquiercounty.gov,
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paul.mercer@fauquiercounty.gov,
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james.fisher@fauquiercounty.gov
subject
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VSGA President - Policy Clarification & Negative Experience Due to Hired Security






To Whom It May Concern,

I am writing because of a very negative experience that my wife and I endured while attending the festival this weekend where I was assaulted and illegally searched by one of your hired security officers (in the uniform of a Sheriff Deputy, therefore acting under the color of authority).

First some background, in Virginia it is 100% legal for law-abiding adults to carry firearms for self-defense purposes, either openly (where the firearm is visible, such as a belt holster - http://virginiaopencarry.org) or concealed (with a valid permit), as a right protected under the US Constitution. It is common practice for those who carry firearms for self-defense to also carry recording to devices to serve as evidence in the event they have to use their firearms to defend themselves. Therefore, I have this entire interaction recorded should it be necessary to provide further evidence of this event beyond the testimony of my wife and myself.

Prior to arriving at the festival I spent considerable time searching the ticket stub we had purchased and the websites of both the Virginia Scottish Games Festival and the Great Meadow Foundation to see if there was any policy prohibiting the lawful carrying of firearms for self-defense. Finding no such policy I decided to attend and carry firearms for self-defense as I always do in Virginia. After parking we checked in at the entrance, again seeing no signs prohibiting firearms.
After a few minutes walking through the exhibits I was stopped by two deputies (apparently hired as private security for the event) and was told that my "weapon" could not be displayed, even though I was carrying it in a 100% legal manner (called open carry), just like they carried their firearms.

I asked what the problem was because I was in no violation of any law and had seen no postings prohibiting firearms. The deputies only stated that I must secure my "weapon" in my vehicle because it could not be displayed. I further asked if there was a policy stating firearms were prohibited, they would not answer and repeated that my "weapon" could not be displayed here.

Not wanting to cause any problems I complied with their request to secure my firearm in my vehicle. I felt some rain drops starting to fall again as I was securing my firearm so I put on my raincoat and returned to the festival.

Within a few minutes of walking through the classic car display another deputy approached me and demanded I allow him to search me for "weapons". I asked what his reasonable articulable suspicion was for wanting to search me and he refused to state anything other than claiming that he had one. He gave me no option to leave the premise or opportunity to state that I did not consent to the search; he immediately reached into my rain coat and assaulted me by performing an illegal search of my person and property without my consent. Finding nothing illegal (I am a law-abiding citizen) he left before I had a chance to ask for his identification. Since he had just demonstrated that he has no regard for individual civil rights and respect for his fellow citizen I feared that chasing after him to get his identification would be seen to him as a threat and put myself and wife in more serious danger.

As I'm sure you can imagine these events had a very negative impact on my wife and I, and feeling no longer welcome or safe at the festival, we decided to go home.

It is my hope that you will provide clarification of your policies regarding firearms (if they exist), reimbursement for my ticket purchase and an apology with how you will ensure this never happens to anyone else at the festival and this venue.

Sincerely,
Harley Green

I really thought I had left this type of interaction behind when I left California!
 
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Wolf_shadow

Activist Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
1,215
Location
Accomac, Virginia, USA
Here's a letter I've sent off to the event directors and property owners of the http://www.vascottishgames.org/Index.html.
Will post responses when I receive them. I am really hoping to avoid legal confrontations, just want them to clearly post their policies so this won't happen to anyone else.



I really thought I had left this type of interaction behind when I left California!

If they were in Deputy Sheriff uniform you also need to address this this with the Sheriff's Department.
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
Is Great Meadow private or public land?
Did you have a recorder?
Did you refuse to be searched?
Did you get their names?
Did they use radios?
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
We addressed this last year http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...Meadow-and-4th-of-July&highlight=great+meadow and generally seemed to find that there was no prohibition. You might want to contact Tess to see if she encountered any problems last year.

I'll echo the suggestion that you submit a formal complaint to the Sheriff as well as the event management. You might also submit a FOIA request for all communications (written, electronic, and telephone calls) between the event management and the Sheriff's Department regarding security planning and instructions at the event. If they do not post they are not violating any law I am aware of, but they certainly are acting foolishly and irresponsibly. If they did in fact instruct their security service that firearms were not to be allowed then they may have had a responsibility to post as well, but I'll defer to the gurus of real property rights on that.

As a final comment, please remember that Virginia has a generally excellent response to OC, but that private property owners are free to establish whatever rules they want to. As much as we may disalke the rules they establish, we remember that we are supposed to respect both their rules and their right to make them.

stay safe.
 

hgreen

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Messages
470
Location
Centreville, VA
Is Great Meadow private or public land? Private
Did you have a recorder? Yes, as stated in the post
Did you refuse to be searched? No, was searched before I had a chance to say anything other than acknowledge I heard what he had said.
Did you get their names? No, as stated in the post, he left immediately and under the stress I did not ask up front.
Did they use radios? I did not see any communication between them.

I'll echo the suggestion that you submit a formal complaint to the Sheriff as well as the event management. You might also submit a FOIA request for all communications (written, electronic, and telephone calls) between the event management and the Sheriff's Department regarding security planning and instructions at the event.

This letter was supposed to be a formal complaint to them. I may do the FOIA next if I don't get any positive response from my kind initial letter. Was hoping it could be a simple, we're sorry, here's your money back and we'll post signs next time and not be so pushy about searching....

If they do not post they are not violating any law I am aware of, but they certainly are acting foolishly and irresponsibly. If they did in fact instruct their security service that firearms were not to be allowed then they may have had a responsibility to post as well, but I'll defer to the gurus of real property rights on that.

As a final comment, please remember that Virginia has a generally excellent response to OC, but that private property owners are free to establish whatever rules they want to. As much as we may disalke the rules they establish, we remember that we are supposed to respect both their rules and their right to make them.

I'm not disputing their right to regulate firearms and have any rules they want, just expressing how no one could have known they had these rules, and even when I complied with the rules I was still assaulted and searched against my will with no option to leave the private property. The goal here is to encourage them to make their policy (if it exists) known so other people don't have such a negative experience for doing nothing wrong...
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
Sorry for the short questions.
We're having a storm which means my internet is on and off. Mostly off:lol: The price of off grid.

There isn't any right or wrong way to handle these situations but the more information you have, he more hell you can raise.

You're doing fine so far!
 

Dutch Uncle

Campaign Veteran
Joined
May 11, 2006
Messages
1,715
Location
Virginia, USA
Having all this recorded is a real plus for you, I suspect. Just the same, it might have been better to have withheld that fact from the deputy, just to see if he would resort to lying or seriously back-peddaling in an attempt to rewrite history.

In any event, the outcome will be interesting.
 

SouthernBoy

Regular Member
Joined
May 12, 2007
Messages
5,837
Location
Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
Those more knowledgeable than I may want to correct this but I think what you stated here,

"He gave me no option to leave the premise or opportunity to state that I did not consent to the search; he immediately reached into my rain coat and assaulted me by performing an illegal search of my person and property without my consent."

may be an assault and battery case. Since it appears that they detained you by force, I would think that would be an illegal act on their part. Also do I see something that looks like, as far as your letter suggests, impersonating an officer?

As has been pointed out, private property rights trump the right of a citizen to carry onto that property... even police for that matter I believe. But I'm pretty sure that if the "invitee" has not committed a criminal act, such as theft while on said property, then the owner or his agent(s) cannot physically detain the invitee (no RAS, no detain). Again, I am not an attorney so I welcome the comments of others on this.

Very interesting. I wonder what they might have tried to do had you had pulled his hand free of your rain coat pocket then the both of had left... or had attempted to leave. I wonder if they would have really turned physical.
 
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DontTreadOnMeVa

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2009
Messages
132
Location
, ,
Great Meadow itself is not the problem. I corresponded with the president of great meadows and this is one of the emails I got from him. They follow state law as far as their own policies.


-------------------------

We are landlord to many events and The Scottish Games is one. They represent their own policies, procedures and security. Since the incident happened during their event, you should refer to them regarding this specific incident. Great Meadow policy is to support the laws in place for our jurisdiction.

Robert L. Banner, Jr.
President, Great Meadow Foundation
(540) 729-1335 cell
robertbanner2@gmail.com
 

hgreen

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Messages
470
Location
Centreville, VA
Great Meadow itself is not the problem. I corresponded with the president of great meadows and this is one of the emails I got from him. They follow state law as far as their own policies.


-------------------------

We are landlord to many events and The Scottish Games is one. They represent their own policies, procedures and security. Since the incident happened during their event, you should refer to them regarding this specific incident. Great Meadow policy is to support the laws in place for our jurisdiction.

Robert L. Banner, Jr.
President, Great Meadow Foundation
(540) 729-1335 cell
robertbanner2@gmail.com

Is that a recent response?

I've received ZERO responses from anyone to which I sent the letter. I guess its time for plan B.... I'll let you know how that goes.
 

user

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
2,516
Location
Northern Piedmont
I've been in contact with the OP regarding this incident. He and his wife (a witness) are deciding whether or not they want to proceed with a civil case against the deputies and the event organizer. Obviously, a significant factor is being able to finance such an endeavor. I wonder whether we could generate the same kind of support for these folks as we did for Skidmark? I think the case is something that affects all of us, and their dedication to protecting our interest in being "secure in our persons and effects" is a primary motivation for their willingness to invest their time, effort and money into filing a civil suit.

What do you think?
 

Epicyon

New member
Joined
Sep 9, 2011
Messages
8
Location
Newport News
I'd be furious if this happened to me.

I can pitch in for legal defense, not much, but I'll throw in what money I can.
 
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