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Gunman kills 3 at Nevada IHOP, including guardsmen

rushcreek2

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Reiterating what SCHLITZ touched upon above - people should no longer be shocked, or mystified that such shooting sprees occur. The list is long - and includes , but is not restricted to - Ft Hood, McDonalds, Luby's Cafeteria, now an IHOP, etc.

As it has been pointed out repeatedly during the 9/11 ceremonies this morning - "Everyone can do SOMETHING".

I can do something by being prepared mentally, functionally, and operationally to be ready to take action in the event I find myself situated at some future targeted location.

What is required in this war against fanatic Islamic murderers, as well in our efforts to convince people to not only appreciate, but to actually EXERCISE THEIR RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS in defense against criminal threats in general is for armed citizens to be ready, willing, and able to stop these murderers in their tracks.
 

RetiredOC

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Reiterating what SCHLITZ touched upon above - people should no longer be shocked, or mystified that such shooting sprees occur. The list is long - and includes , but is not restricted to - Ft Hood, McDonalds, Luby's Cafeteria, now an IHOP, etc.

I'm known as the "paranoid" guy at work because I carry a gun EVERYWHERE (off duty of course). No matter what happens people don't believe it can happen to them. No one believes a guy with an AK47 is going to ruin their pancakes until it's too late.
 

sraacke

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Thanks for your service yale;

now about your post, a lot of it is untrue and probably gossip you read in the Times magazines. I read through them a lot and most if it just seems like rumors and gossip. The registering of guns off post never went through with that unit if I remember correctly. I know many people who carry when we are off base/ off duty and the military has had no say in it. I did bring the problem up of not being able to have a gun in my car to my Group Commander and all he did was point at me and tell me I HAD NO RIGHTS and that if I was in a dangerous area to get a truck and move.... O_O

Since9, this isn't so much commanders at fault. It is our law makers. I believe it is US CODE Title 18 Chapter 4 that prohibits firearms on federal installations. (So that applies to you and I, but I don't know about the laws for these gaurd troops on a state owned base)


The funny thing is this law allows you to lawfully carry a gun on federal property..... but self defense is not lawful anymore I guess!

Thanks for addressing that. While many of these regulations I mentioned were overturned it is a fact that some base commanders were working to impose the types of restrictions I spoke of. Bear with me a sec...
From http://www.nrapublications.org/index.php/8685/political-report-2/ I copy& paste this.....
The issue came to a head in 2010 because of a preposterous regulation imposed at Fort Riley, Kan. The Fort Riley regulation required troops stationed there to register privately owned firearms kept off base—as well as firearms owned by their family members residing anywhere in Kansas. It also prohibited soldiers with Right-to-Carry permits from carrying guns for protection off base and off duty, a restriction we’d also seen imposed a few years ago on soldiers stationed in Alaska. Finally, the Fort Riley rules authorized unit commanders to set arbitrary limits on the caliber of firearms and ammunition their troops could privately own.

Similar regulations were imposed on other bases, and DOD was considering a similar rule department-wide. Under DOD’s national plan, military commanders would require troops to register all privately owned firearms kept off base, and would have authorized commanders to require troops living off base to keep privately owned firearms and ammunition locked in separate containers.
The NRA had to step in and fight these base commanders policies. The fact that any commander would try to impose registration not only on the arms owned by a servicemember but those of his/her relatives is disgusting.
As bad as it is that they don't want civilians and the soldiers to carry on post but then they are laying off the base police. See... http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/08/ap-first-responders-hood-shootings-losing-jobs-080811/ .
FORT HOOD, Texas — Two civilian police officers credited as the first responders in the 2009 Fort Hood shooting massacre are losing their jobs as part of military budget cuts.

The Austin American-Statesman reports Monday that officials on the Central Texas post say Kimberly Munley and Mark Todd are among officers hired year-to-year who will not have their employment renewed.

Todd and Munley were the first law enforcement officers to arrive at a busy medical processing center after a gunman killed 13 people and wounded more than 30 others.
Oh, and from one vet to another...Thanks for your service too, sir.
 

okboomer

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I'm known as the "paranoid" guy at work because I carry a gun EVERYWHERE (off duty of course). No matter what happens people don't believe it can happen to them. No one believes a guy with an AK47 is going to ruin their pancakes until it's too late.

Nooooo, you mean the shooter didn't call ahead and make an appointment to shoot up the restaurant so those who carry would be sure to have their weapons on them?

Dang it, someone call the local Bradyites and ask why they didn't take his appointment call. Oh, I forgot, they don't believe anyone should be carrying.
 

Daylen

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Hey everyone (my first offical post here) I was thinking about this story and being a proud member of the VA national guard I have to think about our soldiers carrying firearms off post. As one of our founding fathers have said free standing armies are dangerous to liberty ect. the opinion that our soldiers should be abel to carry guns/firearms/weapons off post is a bit tricky for me to subscirbe to. I completly agree that the soldiers were vicitms because they were not armed. And again this is tricky for me because soldiers off post (specifically) presents chanllenges as far as the consitution is concerned. I'll try not to be to long winded while presenting everything I'm thinking here...

So my first issue is the whole armed soldiers off post (we'll deal with the national guard specifically here b/c active duty is a whole other animal). My problem is the consitution and local state and federal laws that cover such things. Of course on the flip side it really does no good to disarm them as we see evident in this story. So how would we solve this problem (speakign again specifically of NG)? I would love to be abel to carry in uniform but I also have the reservation about laws and constitution and founding fathers opinions. And of course there's the whole AR 670-1 (uniform reg for the army). So there's a bit of a snag for this and I'd love to know you're guys'/gal's opinions about it, and possible solutions i.e. consitutiona amendments/fixing the laws.

As far as active duty is concerned I fully believe that soldiers should be bale to carry their pow's (personally owned weapons not prisoners of war) on post, on or off duty. As far as off post is concerned I think they should be restriced to off duty in their Pov's (personally owned vehicles) . And again I know it serves no purpose to disarm our soldiers in uniform becuase they are probably more likely to be "victims" of a crime off post but I again go back to the reservation of the constitution and opinions of our founding fathers. So like I said this is tricky. Soldiers are citizens too, in fact more so than some because of their sacrifice and I know first hand that soldiers get almost none of the rights that they have sworn to protect and defend. (for instance the 1st, 2nd and 4th that I can name off the top of my head).

I want our soldiers to be able to defend themselves but I also worry about what the constitution says and why the provisions were put into place, anyone else have these conflicts??

1) The National Guard is not an army, it is the organized militia.

2) BAFTE and DEA are the standing armies that the founders warned against. Its the standing armies that enforce laws that are the problem, not standing armies that are only used against outside foes.
 

230therapy

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In this post-9/11 world, it's absolutely asinine for uniformed military personnel to go unarmed. I guess Hassan didn't teach the Army anything.

The guardsmen could have tucked pistols under their uniforms. They chose otherwise and paid for that choice.
 
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wrightme

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The guardsmen could have tucked pistols under their uniforms. They chose otherwise and paid for that choice.

Yes, they could have. Instead, they chose to follow the regulations that allowed them to retain their chosen positions in the Guard. They chose to be Law Abiding Citizens.
 

Daylen

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Yes, they could have. Instead, they chose to follow the regulations that allowed them to retain their chosen positions in the Guard. They chose to be Law Abiding Citizens.

That is debatable. Unconstitutional statutes and regulations are not laws that must be followed. It doesn't take much reading of the federalists papers to realize there was never an intention of illegal "laws" and regulations being followed. Certainly, the federal government has no authority to disarm the militia.
 

wrightme

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That is debatable. Unconstitutional statutes and regulations are not laws that must be followed. It doesn't take much reading of the federalists papers to realize there was never an intention of illegal "laws" and regulations being followed. Certainly, the federal government has no authority to disarm the militia.
The regulations are of their employer. Further, much of it also hinges upon the locations being prohibited.
 

georg jetson

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1) The National Guard is not an army, it is the organized militia.

2) BAFTE and DEA are the standing armies that the founders warned against. Its the standing armies that enforce laws that are the problem, not standing armies that are only used against outside foes.

The National Guard CAN and HAS been used as a tool of usurpation. I saw it first hand in the New Orleans area post Katrina for YEARS. We were warned against ANY standing army.

If we followed the US Const, we wouldn't be having this discussion because the "people" are the militia and their 2A rights are clearly protected .
 
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Daylen

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The National Guard CAN and HAS been used as a tool of usurpation. I saw it first hand in the New Orleans area post Katrina for YEARS. We were warned against ANY standing army.

That does not make them a standing army. You simply witnessed proof that the anti federalists were right and the federalists were wrong when they claimed that militias of one state would never make muster to enforce tyranny in another state.
 

Daylen

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The regulations are of their employer. Further, much of it also hinges upon the locations being prohibited.

The discussion is not about their employer it is about the federal government regulating the bearing of arms of the organized militia. That is clearly beyond their constitutional powers. The federal government is not supposed to have as many rights or privileges as people. There have been SCOTUS cases clearly saying that the federal government not people are limited by the bill of rights. That is why employers can prohibit arms on their property and the feds have no constitutional authority to do so.
 

wrightme

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The discussion is not about their employer it is about the federal government regulating the bearing of arms of the organized militia. That is clearly beyond their constitutional powers. The federal government is not supposed to have as many rights or privileges as people. There have been SCOTUS cases clearly saying that the federal government not people are limited by the bill of rights. That is why employers can prohibit arms on their property and the feds have no constitutional authority to do so.

This discussion IS about their employer and the restrictions that employer places upon them, and upon them at their place of employment.





Their employer IS the government. But the restriction is upon the employees, not upon citizens. Further, the restrictions are upon employees and/or citizens upon federal property, which, whether right or not, does exist.


Now, as to the actual thread topic, the guardmembers chose to follow the law. And, as for this forum, claims as to unconstitutional or not are not valid.
(15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.

and, you jumped in to the actual thread topic, as opposed to your off-topic side topic.....
In this post-9/11 world, it's absolutely asinine for uniformed military personnel to go unarmed. I guess Hassan didn't teach the Army anything.

The guardsmen could have tucked pistols under their uniforms. They chose otherwise and paid for that choice.
Yes, they could have. Instead, they chose to follow the regulations that allowed them to retain their chosen positions in the Guard. They chose to be Law Abiding Citizens.

That is debatable. Unconstitutional statutes and regulations are not laws that must be followed. It doesn't take much reading of the federalists papers to realize there was never an intention of illegal "laws" and regulations being followed. Certainly, the federal government has no authority to disarm the militia.
Yes, the guardsmen made a choice. They chose to follow the regulations and law. A criminal chose them. To claim they willfully went unarmed is simply not accurate. Claiming they could have armed themselves would be to advocate having them ignore the regulations placed upon them by their employer.
 
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PavePusher

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Yes, they could have. Instead, they chose to follow the regulations that allowed them to retain their chosen positions in the Guard. They chose to be Law Abiding Citizens.

And that has demonstrateably not worked out well for us in several incidents. Ft. Hood. Carson City. Frankfurt Airport.

We got a "security" brief last week, in prep for the 9/11 anniversary. The most kinetic defense method advised was self-camoflauge ("avoid wearing uniform blouses to/from base"). NOT A SINGLE WORD WAS SAID ABOUT ARMING ONESELF WITH SO MUCH AS A FRIGGIN' TOOTHPICK.

"Armed" Forces, my fat, hairy 20+ year veteran ass.

You know what we're told to do in a mass shooting situation? Play Virginia Tech. Lock the door and hide behind your desk. NOTHING ABOUT BLOW THE PIECE OF $#!* AWAY BEFORE S/HE KILLS ANY MORE AIRMEN.

As you may have guessed by now, this kinda makes my blood pressure go up a tick or two....

Edit: My last commander carried almost everywhere. He said if we ever got jacked up for having a gun in a locked case on base, he'd go to the wall for us. And if we ever got shot off-base and couldn't display an honor guard or empty mags, he'd be tempted to shoot us again.
 
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since9

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Note also that Klebold and Harris, the Columbine shooters were both on psychiatric medication. As were quite a number of mass shooters in this country. Now, one can go around in circles all day about other factors this, other factors that--really fog up the issue. But, one thing really stands out if one is willing to look through the fog: the medications didn't prevent the killings, didn't prevent the suicides.

Background currents, those spoken about by psychiatrists but which don't make their way into the media because no one wants to risk legal action from companies like Merck, indicate serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SRIs) can alter one's mental faculties. Sometimes it's mild. Sometimes it's severe. At times it seems to reduce the threshold people have with respect to how they treat others.

It isn't really a DoD policy, it is federal law.

Actually, DoD regulations authorize installation commanders to establish the rules on their installation with respect to firearms. DoD policy either encourages them or requires them to restrict firearms on base to a serious extent.

You cannot bring a firearm into a federal facility unless it is for lawful purposes.

Well, IHOP is not a federal facility! Seriously, though, while bases fall under federal, they're DoD, so a different set of rules apply than for, say, the local IRS office.

The issue goes back to DoD policy whereby active duty military are not allowed to carry while in uniform. I suspect the same is true of Guard and Reserve. That puts our military servicemen at unnecessary risk.


I did bring the problem up of not being able to have a gun in my car to my Group Commander and all he did was point at me and tell me I HAD NO RIGHTS...

That commander FAILS at knowing the UCMJ. The idea that people forfeit their rights when they join the military is wrong. It's an oft-repeated fallacy designed to whip people into line and cow-tow them into never stepping out of line.

In fact, you retain 100% of your rights. There are some things you agree to do, however. You take an oath and agree get the job done, even if it requires your life. Time and again, however, the courts continue to affirm the rights of servicemen, much to the chagrin of poorly-informed commanders.

Since9, this isn't so much commanders at fault. It is our law makers. I believe it is US CODE Title 18 Chapter 4

What part? It goes Title, Part, Chapter, etc. The only Chapter 4 (under Part 1) no longer exists.

So that applies to you and I, but I don't know about the laws for these gaurd troops on a state owned base.

Many guard/reserve bases share space with active duty units on federal land.

In this post-9/11 world, it's absolutely asinine for uniformed military personnel to go unarmed.

I agree, but I'd say pre/post doesn't make a hill of beans bit of difference with respect to honoring our 2A rights.

And that's really what this boils down to: Is the Military willing to Honor our Constitution, the same document ALL members of the military swear to protect and defend against all enemies, foreign and domestic, or has the oath of office merely become lip service and by their actions they're dishonoring it, even to the point of having become that enemy?

If we followed the US Const, we wouldn't be having this discussion because the "people" are the militia and their 2A rights are clearly protected.

Well, it's clear to us. Then again, we can read English.
 

wrightme

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Well, IHOP is not a federal facility! Seriously, though, while bases fall under federal, they're DoD, so a different set of rules apply than for, say, the local IRS office.

The issue goes back to DoD policy whereby active duty military are not allowed to carry while in uniform. I suspect the same is true of Guard and Reserve. That puts our military servicemen at unnecessary risk.
They were IN uniform, and on their way to/from the federal facility. Unless they have adequate parking that allows firearm storage in the vehicle, it is quite possible that even if they chose to arm themselves in violation of the regulations, they may simply not have had a method to make the switch.
 

PavePusher

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This is indeed a tragedy, one centered primarily on the misguided decisions of commanders who deprive their troops of a means to defend themselves out of fear one of them "may" abuse the privilege.

That's cowardice in the face of a civil enemy.

If the commanders can't make better decisions than that, they need to either relinquish their command or have it transferred to someone who is more concerned about protecting the troops than their own backsides.

It's not really the commanders anymore. It used to be base commander discretion (which, in the zero-career-risk military meant "hell no"), now it's a DoD regulation, IIRC. I'll try to find it.
 

Daylen

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It's not really the commanders anymore. It used to be base commander discretion (which, in the zero-career-risk military meant "hell no"), now it's a DoD regulation, IIRC. I'll try to find it.

THAT is why actual standing armies are a threat to liberty. Careers come before liberty, lives and oaths.
 
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