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LEO Traffic Encounter

RedRuger

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, Louisiana, USA
Leo Traffic Encounter - Licenses, Insurance, and Title

The last thing you want the police to see you do is moving stuff around in the car even before the car is stopped. The police WILL think that you are hiding drugs or getting a weapon.

As soon as I have my vehicle stopped, I roll down the window and have my hands on the top of the steering wheel with my ID Holder containing my CWP and my drivers license open with the CWP facing the window.
 

mahkagari

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Unless they're in Denver. Just thought that should be added haha.

I think it's Aurora PD who tend to be trigger happy for open carry of cell phones. DPD will beat your ass for sneezing, but haven't been shooting people lately. TMK. Don't take my word for it.
 

JamesB

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Jan 13, 2010
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Lakewood, Colorado, USA
Regardless of where all that stuff is in the car, I'm not opening the glove box. Just in case they haven't decided whether to give me a ticket or not, they really don't need to see all the other speeding tickets I've been given.
 

RetiredOC

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The last thing you want the police to see you do is moving stuff around in the car even before the car is stopped. The police WILL think that you are hiding drugs or getting a weapon.

As soon as I have my vehicle stopped, I roll down the window and have my hands on the top of the steering wheel with my ID Holder containing my CWP and my drivers license open with the CWP facing the window.

I feel that people are getting the impression that grabbing a sheet of paper out of the glove box is the equivalent to climbing into the passenger seat and working a bo-flex machine. Sure, the cop could be thinking that you're hiding something, but lets take a common sense approach. If you're a cop pulling someone over is it far fetched to think that maybe they're just grabbing their registration? Where is the most common place to place your registration?

It's a car.... what ever you could be hiding isn't going anywhere far.
 

DinFreemont

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Freemont County, CO
I feel that people are getting the impression that grabbing a sheet of paper out of the glove box is the equivalent to climbing into the passenger seat and working a bo-flex machine. Sure, the cop could be thinking that you're hiding something, but lets take a common sense approach. If you're a cop pulling someone over is it far fetched to think that maybe they're just grabbing their registration? Where is the most common place to place your registration?

It's a car.... what ever you could be hiding isn't going anywhere far.

It is a situation that can be “nothing” or a “big problem” I for one try and not move much and have everything in my hand when approached, I have had a state trooper put his gun in my window because he was “worried about my movements” getting some paperwork...

It is not a nice situation, and I understand it is more common than people think...
 

Citizen

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Nov 15, 2006
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Fairfax Co., VA
Regardless of where all that stuff is in the car, I'm not opening the glove box. Just in case they haven't decided whether to give me a ticket or not, they really don't need to see all the other speeding tickets I've been given.

:D

And, besides, you have a trunk full of heroin and have to get to the party, right? (George Carlin line)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrkPikSrM0U
 
Last edited:

since9

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The last thing you want the police to see you do is moving stuff around in the car even before the car is stopped. The police WILL think that you are hiding drugs or getting a weapon.

As soon as I have my vehicle stopped, I roll down the window and have my hands on the top of the steering wheel with my ID Holder containing my CWP and my drivers license open with the CWP facing the window.

Good approach. I've done much the same.

I have had a state trooper put his gun in my window because he was “worried about my movements” getting some paperwork... It is not a nice situation, and I understand it is more common than people think...

If that happens, I'm likely to slowly put both hands on the steering and say, "I would like to speak with your supervisor." If he asks why, my answer would be "I'm lawfully attempting to comply with your request, but I am very uncomfortable with your ongoing threat of deadly force."

Let him take me to jail - I would not resist arrest. At least his supervisor would be sure to learn the officer was waving his gun around, without cause, like an idiot.
 

RetiredOC

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It is a situation that can be “nothing” or a “big problem” I for one try and not move much and have everything in my hand when approached, I have had a state trooper put his gun in my window because he was “worried about my movements” getting some paperwork...

It is not a nice situation, and I understand it is more common than people think...

WELL THEN DON'T GET ANYTHING OUT. Cop tells you to get your registration? Tell him to eat it and you will not reach for the glove box. Holy crap guys.

You have to move at some point or another to get something unless you drive everywhere with all your documents in your freaking hands.

Simply grabbing a piece of paper from the glove box is not the equivalent of assembling an Avtomat Kalashnikova model 47. Now if you carry 5,000 traffic tickets in your glove (i don't know why) then maybe you'd spend more time digging around that side of the car which COULD look suspicious, but that's not what I'm getting at. I simply reach over, snatch 2 sheets of folder paper and hold them in my hand so there is no reaching for anything when he comes to the window. Hands on the wheel 100% of the time.

My fear is, "go ahead and get your registration"

"im going in the glove box sir"

^ It doesn't mean a damn thing if he is watching or you tell him what you're doing, if he "THINKS" he sees a gun then you're a goner.
 

Polynikes

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May 18, 2011
Messages
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Location
Colorado Springs
WELL THEN DON'T GET ANYTHING OUT. Cop tells you to get your registration? Tell him to eat it and you will not reach for the glove box. Holy crap guys.

You have to move at some point or another to get something unless you drive everywhere with all your documents in your freaking hands.

Simply grabbing a piece of paper from the glove box is not the equivalent of assembling an Avtomat Kalashnikova model 47. Now if you carry 5,000 traffic tickets in your glove (i don't know why) then maybe you'd spend more time digging around that side of the car which COULD look suspicious, but that's not what I'm getting at. I simply reach over, snatch 2 sheets of folder paper and hold them in my hand so there is no reaching for anything when he comes to the window. Hands on the wheel 100% of the time.

My fear is, "go ahead and get your registration"

"im going in the glove box sir"

^ It doesn't mean a damn thing if he is watching or you tell him what you're doing, if he "THINKS" he sees a gun then you're a goner
.

Which is why I keep my wallet readily at hand in a cup holder, and my papers in the passenger visor. Both places are easily visible so my hands never leave the officer's sight and neither place could possibly hold a concealed weapon... but I digress. Handle your traffic stop however you prefer, I was just describing what I've chosen to do. At the end of the day, hopefully we all come home safe. :)
 

Gunslinger

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Free, Colorado, USA
Good approach. I've done much the same.



If that happens, I'm likely to slowly put both hands on the steering and say, "I would like to speak with your supervisor." If he asks why, my answer would be "I'm lawfully attempting to comply with your request, but I am very uncomfortable with your ongoing threat of deadly force."

Let him take me to jail - I would not resist arrest. At least his supervisor would be sure to learn the officer was waving his gun around, without cause, like an idiot.

I would politely ask to see the felony warrant he held against me. When he says he doesn't have one, I'd politely inform him he just committed aggravated assault and I would be filing suit against him in federal court, and if his department's policy wasn't to point a loaded weapon at someone stopped for traffic violations only, he would have no qualified immunity. If it was, the department would be equally liable for real and exemplary damages, again with no qualified immunity. If they feel they need their hand on a pistol for a minor traffic stop until they identify the situation, fine. They have no right, failing PC or holding of a felony arrest warrant, to 'ever' point a weapon at you.
 

since9

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I would politely ask to see the felony warrant he held against me. When he says he doesn't have one, I'd politely inform him he just committed aggravated assault and I would be filing suit against him in federal court, and if his department's policy wasn't to point a loaded weapon at someone stopped for traffic violations only, he would have no qualified immunity. If it was, the department would be equally liable for real and exemplary damages, again with no qualified immunity. If they feel they need their hand on a pistol for a minor traffic stop until they identify the situation, fine. They have no right, failing PC or holding of a felony arrest warrant, to 'ever' point a weapon at you.

That's good to know. My concern is that any LEO stupid enough to break the law like that might feel cornered by that tactic and do something rash. On the other hand, spending the night in the tank is minimal compared to being in too deceased a condition to attend your own funeral. There's always time after deflation of the situation to go ahead and file against him and his department.
 

skidmark

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I would politely ask to see the felony warrant he held against me. When he says he doesn't have one, I'd politely inform him he just committed aggravated assault and I would be filing suit against him in federal court, and if his department's policy wasn't to point a loaded weapon at someone stopped for traffic violations only, he would have no qualified immunity. If it was, the department would be equally liable for real and exemplary damages, again with no qualified immunity. If they feel they need their hand on a pistol for a minor traffic stop until they identify the situation, fine. They have no right, failing PC or holding of a felony arrest warrant, to 'ever' point a weapon at you.

Would you please provide a citation backing up your statement?

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I am looking for the basis behind your suggestion that you are right. I have a feeling there are ithers who are equally curious.

Thanks in advance.

stay safe.
 

Gunslinger

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The defense of qualified immunity protects "government officials . . . from liability for civil damages insofar as their conduct does not violate clearly established statutory or constitutional rights of which a reasonable person would have known." Harlow v. Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 800, 818 (1982). The rule of qualified immunity " `provides ample support to all but the plainly incompetent or those who knowingly violate the law.' " Burns v. Reed, 500 U.S. 478, 494-95 (1991) (quoting Malley v. Briggs, 475 U.S. 335, 341 (1986)). "Therefore, regardless of whether the constitutional violation occurred, the officer should prevail if the right asserted by the plaintiff was not `clearly established' or the officer could have reasonably believed that his particular conduct was lawful." Romero v. Kitsap County, 931 F.2d 624, 627 (9th Cir. 1991) (emphasis added). Furthermore, "[t]he entitlement is an immunity from suit rather than a mere defense to liability; .. . it is effectively lost if a case is erroneously permitted to go to trial." Mitchell v. Forsyth, 472 U.S. 511, 526 (1985).

The qualified immunity test requires a two-part analysis: "(1) Was the law governing the official's conduct clearly established? (2) Under that law, could a reasonable officer have believed the conduct was lawful?" Act-Up!, 988 F.2d at 871; see also Tribble v. Gardner, 860 F.2d 321, 324 (9th Cir. 1988), cert. denied, 490 U.S. 1075 (1989).

The qualified immunity doctrine protects government officials from liability for civil damages "insofar as their conduct does not violate clearly established statutory or constitutional rights of which a reasonable person would have known." Harlow v. Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 800, 818 (1982). In determining whether an official is entitled to qualified immunity, we (1) identify the specific right allegedly violated; (2) determine whether the right was "clearly established;" and (3) determine whether a reasonable officer could have believed that his or her conduct was lawful. Alexander v. City and County of San Francisco, 29 F.3d 1355, 1363-64 (9th Cir. 1994).

Courts apply the test articulated by the Supreme Court in Anderson v. Creighton, 483 U.S. 635 (1987), to determine whether the right is "sufficiently clear that a reasonable official would understand that what he is doing violates that right." Id. at 639-40. It is not necessary that the specific action in question previously have been declared unconstitutional, so long as the unlawfulness was apparent in light of preexisting law. Id. at 640. We consider whether "the particular facts of [the] case support a claim of clearly established right." Backlund v. Barnhart, 778 F.2d 1386, 1389 (9th Cir. 1985).

Even where a constitutional violation has occurred, an officer will be immune from suit if he or she "could have reasonably believed that his particular conduct was lawful." Romero, 931 F.2d at 627.

"[A] district court's denial of a claim of qualified immunity, to the extent that it turns on an issue of law, is an appealable 'final decision' within the meaning of 28 U.S.C. section 1291 notwithstanding the absence of a final judgment." Mitchell v. Forsyth, 472 U.S. 511, 530 (1985).






* * * * * * * * * *
 

Gunslinger

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PITTSBURGH -- A Pittsburgh police detective is facing charges that he choked and pointed a gun at another driver following a weekend car crash on the Parkway East while he was off duty.
The crash, which was not reported at the time, happened on the outbound side of Interstate 376 near the Oakland exit at about 10:16 a.m. Saturday, Pennsylvania State Police said on Monday afternoon.
After the crash, police said 43-year-old Bradley Walker -- who works out of the city's Zone 2 station -- went over to Jarret Fate's 1975 Porsche and began hitting the driver's side door before punching out the driver's side windshield and window.
Police said Walker then reached into the vehicle and began choking the 29-year-old Fate.

When Fate tried to get away, Walker got back into his vehicle and was able to cut him off, police said.
According to police, Walker, a 17 year-veteran, then pointed a gun at Fate.
Police said Fate gave Walker his license number and insurance card.
Walker took the information and threw the cards back at Fate, police said.
Walker was arrested Monday and has since been released from the Allegheny County Jail on an unsecured $25,000 bond. He faces charges of >>>>>>>>>>>aggravated assault>>>>>>>>>>>>>>, simple assault, recklessly endangering another person, criminal mischief and unlawful restraint.
Walker is due back in court next week.
Pittsburgh police spokeswoman Diane Richard said Walker has been placed on administrative duty and will face internal charges in addition to those filed by state police.
In 2007, Walker was accused of assaulting his wife and son, but those charges were later withdrawn.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Read more: http://www.wtae.com/news/23437254/detail.html#ixzz1Xkpd6sfO
 

skidmark

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Gunslinger -

Thanks for the exposition on qualified immunity. I would counter that there are many possible situations where a LEO would believe that pointing a gun at you without having a warrant in hand would be legal, or even that there was nothing making it illegal. The worst (IMHO) case scenario is going to the a claim of "officer safety".

As for the Pittsburgh officer scenario, we need to look at how it veers away from the "usual" situation that prompted the discussion. First of all the LEO was off-duty and, based on the absence of any mention of it in the reported account, probably did not identify himself as a police officer attempting to effect an arrest. Those two points alone will serve to make this example an absolute outlier and thus not relevant to the discussion.

Perhaps member Citizen will take note of the incident and admit amazement at the fact that The Blue Code of Silence was not in effect and thus Det. (for now) Walker is facing multiple assault charges.

But let's get back to "If they feel they need their hand on a pistol for a minor traffic stop until they identify the situation, fine. They have no right, failing PC or holding of a felony arrest warrant, to 'ever' point a weapon at you." There are numerous situations where LEO have approached traffic stops with handguns drawn and not at low-ready but up and pointed at the occupants. If only for the ease of pointing them out I offer the TV show "COPS" as my citation. In those cases the LEO only has RAS/PC that certain traffic infractions were committed, yet for "officer safety" weapons are displayed. If I wanted to bother searching I'm sure I could find a few instances that were not culled from a TV show where similar dynamics were in play. Are you telling me that noone has bothered to attempt to collect monetary compensation for having a weapon pointed at them as the reason for the lack of case citations? (Remember, your citations address qualified immunity as a concept, not to a LEO losing a claim of qualified immunity as defense against a suit for pointing a weapon at a non-felony arrestee.) So, the bottom line is I am still awaiting a citation.

stay safe.
 

Gunslinger

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I wasn't sure what you were asking, quite frankly, so posted on each point. 42 USC 1983 doesn't discriminate in type of deprivation under color of law. I will have to research aggravated assault specifically when I get the chance. I don't watch "Cops," but would bet there are neighborhood, type of car, racial profiling, age and many other so called 'officer safety' rationales for their having drawn guns. None of these would apply to the instant discussion or my statement about me. Hence, I dismiss officer safety as justification. BTW, the cop I noted is claiming now he was 'on duty' once he started "investigating" the accident (Foxnews). The charges, however, still stand. While these are criminal, they do clearly show cops are not above the law and do not have license to threaten deadly force, absent compelling and lawful circumstance. And no departmental policy gives them carte blanche to point a gun at someone stopped for a tail light burned out. Thus, no qualified immunity.

I don't see where you are getting "Are you telling me that noone has bothered to attempt to collect monetary compensation for having a weapon pointed at them as the reason for the lack of case citations?" I am saying precisely the opposite. I would wager there are state actions wherein this occured, also. That, however, is more digging than I care to do.
 

Ian

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Nov 11, 2007
Messages
710
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Austin, TX
Howdy Amigo!
That's the nice thing about Colorado cops. They don't tend to be trigger happy morons!

Blessings,
M-Taliesin

Trigger happy cops or not, it is just plain a bad f***ing idea to grab a gun like that during a traffic stop unless specifically instructed by the officer.
 

M-Taliesin

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Aurora, Colorado
Unless they're in Denver. Just thought that should be added haha.

Howdy LittleMan!
Well, Denver ain't really Colorado. They don't abide by our Constitution, don't have the same rules as every other jurisdiction, and don't treat citizens with dignity and respect. They are their own little island of abusive behavior that is utterly contrary to Colorado values. So when talking about Colorado, I just naturally exclude them from my thinking, considering they are their own little gulag.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin
 

M-Taliesin

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Questions to a Traffic Cop!

Howdy Folks!
This thread stuck in my mind as I attended citizen's academy last night and the primary speaker is a traffic enforcement officer. What better opportunity to ask a cop what would be the best way to handle such a situation as being armed during a traffic stop:

Me: So, if I am stopped for some traffic infraction, and I have a sidearm with me and my CCW too, what's the best behavior I should engage for everybody's safety.

Cop: Well, if I come up and see you moving around inside, I don't know what you're doing. You may be collecting paperwork or reaching for a gun.

Me: Well, I'd likely have both hands on the wheel as the officer approaches my window. Should I inform that I have a CCW or that I am armed?

Cop: If you don't tell me you're armed, and I saw the weapon, the next thing you'd feel is my pistol screwed into your ear!

Me: But if you come to the car, and I state that I am a CCW holder and armed, what is your behavior then.

Cop: Then I'd want to see your permit and license.

Me: And I would draw your attention to the bag I carry, often resting on the passenger floor of my car, and tell you "I'll need to get those items you request from my bag."

Cop: Yes, and I'd watch carefully while you got them.

For the most part, I didn't like the tone of his answers because they had an edge to them that seemed hostile to the notion that I may be armed.

Cop: We never know who might be armed. We always approach every vehicle as though the driver or occupants might be armed.

Okay, that makes sense on the face of it. But when a driver has both hands on the wheel, in plain sight, and informs the officer that he is armed, he has demonstrated that he is not trying to pose a threat to the officer. Once the officer understands that the dirver is a legally permitted carrier, it is understandable that he remain vigilant, but how will each officer handle each person carrying, and will it make differences based on other factors not in evidence at the time.

Cop: We take into account the totality of the circumstances. What is the demeanor of the driver. Does his behavior indicate a need for elevated caution? There are a lot of things to consider when approaching the vehicle.

Now my concern is how each officer, in each different jurisdiction, in each city, county or state officer encounter might play out.

From what I got from this officer, it is best to inform the officer up front, immediately upon commencing the encounter, that you are armed. If you also have a permit, a good idea to refer to it up front too. Otherwise, have his pistol "Screwed into" your ear.

So what I was left with were more questions than answers from this particular officer.
That ain't intended to reflect badly on him, nothing of the sort. I just don't feel that I got a clear insight into the best way to handle a traffic stop from the citizen's perspective.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin
 
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