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Thread: Carson City

  1. #1
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    Carson City

    My heart goes out to everyone in Carson City. But I have to ask: If you were the armed citizen, Ralph Swagler, who saw the man with the AK going into the IHOP, what would you have done?

    From what I understand:
    1) Swagler saw Senicon carrying the rifle.
    2) Senicon fired on a woman outside the restaurant.
    3) Swagler warned another woman who was heading towards the gunman.
    4) Senicon entered the IHOP and began firing.

    There are some things to consider:
    1) The confusion of the situation. At some point, Swagler must have realized Senicon was an active shooter, as he warned the other woman.
    2) The distances involved. Swagler was at a different location than where the shooter was. We don't know the distance of any shots he would have taken.
    3) Rifle versus Pistol. Swagler was armed only with a pistol. Senicon had a rifle.
    4) Personal safety/safety of those nearby. Swagler was relatively safe, locked into his own restaurant with some other people. Firing on the gunman may have attracted his attention in his direction.

    Anyway, my heart goes out to Swagler, too. He will live with regret the rest of his life that he didn't fire -- even if that regret is completely unjustified. Sometimes, it almost feels like NOT carrying is the easier decision.

    I don't in anyway at all mean this thread to be an indictment of Swagler's actions -- rather, I'm just thinking "what would I do?" in case, God forbid, I find myself in a similar situation.
    Last edited by DoomGoober; 09-07-2011 at 12:50 PM.

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    Running through scenarios is likely to help.

    There is no way to know how each person will react unless they ARE in the real situation. I would like to think I would react well, but the reality may be different. It is difficult to accurately simulate how you will feel and react to an AK variant pointed in your direction, or very likely to be pointed in your direction. The person with the AK definitely has the distance and accuracy advantage over a person with a handgun. Given cover for you, and having the active shooter in the open may make it easier to overcome. Lacking that.....
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Well, under non stressful conditions I can hit a man's chest at 25 yards with my XD9 every time and the gun does go off every time I pull the trigger. But I'm really not interested in firing at a man whose attention is not on me or on someone right next to me. Hitting an innocent person makes it too risky for me. I would have ran and called 911, most likely. I'm no hero.
    Last edited by 77zach; 09-07-2011 at 01:02 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    A perfect reason to be armed at all times. There may have been time to fire back during his reload.

    Sencion stepped out of the minivan and immediately shot a woman near a motorcycle before charging into the chain restaurant. Witnesses said he had unloaded a magazine when he was still less than 12 feet from his car.

    But lets review. A Mexican, who only has a "passport", has been given a job, to work in his families business while drawing disability in America, and most of his $923 in disability income was from Social Security from America. He had $42,000 in outstanding debts for a car, several credit cards and some medical expenses. At the time, Sencion reported having $200 spread over three bank accounts and again was "earning" $923 in disability income, mostly from Social Security. So basically a "visiting" Mexican who was working at his families business and drawing from our Social Security pool, bought guns and shot a bunch of people. I thought I read somewhere that he was on drugs too. Wow another shocker.
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    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

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    Regular Member Brown Lab Ranch's Avatar
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    I know for a fact I would never want to be in that situation, but things being what the are, the best thing to do is train, train, and train some more. Situations are always going to dictate your course of action. Like 77zach posted above, calling 911 is probably the first thing you need to do. Letting law enforcement know there's a shooter AND legally armed citizens allows them the advantage of enhanced situational awareness before they get to the scene. Again, the situation is going to dictate your actions. If there is an imminent threat to your life or someone in close proximity, my guess is most people would do the right thing and attempt to shoot the assailant. But being able to make those split second decisions under stress is a whole different animal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    A perfect reason to be armed at all times. There may have been time to fire back during his reload.

    Sencion stepped out of the minivan and immediately shot a woman near a motorcycle before charging into the chain restaurant. Witnesses said he had unloaded a magazine when he was still less than 12 feet from his car.

    But lets review. A Mexican, who only has a "passport", has been given a job, to work in his families business while drawing disability in America, and most of his $923 in disability income was from Social Security from America. He had $42,000 in outstanding debts for a car, several credit cards and some medical expenses. At the time, Sencion reported having $200 spread over three bank accounts and again was "earning" $923 in disability income, mostly from Social Security. So basically a "visiting" Mexican who was working at his families business and drawing from our Social Security pool, bought guns and shot a bunch of people. I thought I read somewhere that he was on drugs too. Wow another shocker.
    Some of that does not match up.

    He was reportedly born in Mexico. And, he had a US Passport. Also, he was reportedly part-owner of a business.

    That is not the same as "Mexican, working in his families business." Time will tell as to what the reality is. But, it does not paint a picture of a "visiting" Mexican.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member decklin's Avatar
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    The report I just read said that Sencion was a U.S. Citizen with no criminal history. It says he also had a pistol and another rifle in the van.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/carson-city...ry?id=14464852

  8. #8
    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decklin View Post
    The report I just read said that Sencion was a U.S. Citizen with no criminal history. It says he also had a pistol and another rifle in the van.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/carson-city...ry?id=14464852
    Sencion was born in Mexico and had a valid U.S. passport. He worked at a family business in South Lake Tahoe and had no known affiliations with anyone inside the restaurant, Furlong said. He was not in the military.

    I heard on the news he had been arrested twice and was in a mental institution once. I have not found that in print but am looking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    Sencion was born in Mexico and had a valid U.S. passport. He worked at a family business in South Lake Tahoe and had no known affiliations with anyone inside the restaurant, Furlong said. He was not in the military.

    I heard on the news he had been arrested twice and was in a mental institution once. I have not found that in print but am looking.
    Read the link in the post you responded to. Sencion was a United States Citizen.


    As for criminal record? None reported that I have seen. I did see a reference to two encounters with LE that did lead to what sounded like involuntary committment, which does seem to indicate he may have had a "prohibited person" status. But, other articles indicate that LE didn't have contact with him in the past..... So, time will tell.


    From that link:
    Furlong said the investigation had determined that Sencion had not singled out the guardsmen
    Furlong said Sencion, 32, had a history of mental illness.


    Sencion, who was born in Mexico, is a U.S. citizen who has been here for a long period of time and had no criminal history, Furlong said. The only record police have of him is of three pawn transactions over the past year.


    (fair-use excerpts)



    So, some of the reality is this. He was a US citizen. He reportedly had mental problems, and no police record. Those are statements from the Carson City Sheriff.
    Last edited by wrightme; 09-07-2011 at 04:09 PM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  10. #10
    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Well for all the things being reveal about this nut it may prove difficult to establish why the hell these innocent American's died.

    I could throw this out there: The fringe left anti-gun nuts paid this person for which he was able to ensure his family is nicely taken care of after he's gone. Or, he was activated, or, he owned the left big time and saying no could bring harm to his loved ones.

    I know tin foil hat, sounds crazy since the peace loving radical left would never resort to violence in their movements, right?


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    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    Well for all the things being reveal about this nut it may prove difficult to establish why the hell these innocent American's died.

    I could throw this out there: The fringe left anti-gun nuts paid this person for which he was able to ensure his family is nicely taken care of after he's gone. Or, he was activated, or, he owned the left big time and saying no could bring harm to his loved ones.

    I know tin foil hat, sounds crazy since the peace loving radical left would never resort to violence in their movements, right?
    Or, he is exactly what he currently appears to be; a person who had mental troubles, followed by financial troubles, and chose to act.


    Given the financial troubles, it does look like a possible attempt at "suicide by cop" that took too long for his desires, to the point he took his own life.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Wondered when this would pop up here.

    My only two cents to throw in:

    Once again, our uniformed service members are deliberately targeted by a deranged psychopath, and despite being the best trained and most competent marksmen in the world (in general), THEY ARE PROHIBITED FROM BEING ARMED AND ARE MADE DEFENSELESS!!


    Gun free zones FTW!
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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Wondered when this would pop up here.

    My only two cents to throw in:

    Once again, our uniformed service members are deliberately targeted by a deranged psychopath, and despite being the best trained and most competent marksmen in the world (in general), THEY ARE PROHIBITED FROM BEING ARMED AND ARE MADE DEFENSELESS!!


    Gun free zones FTW!
    I always wonder why our armed forces are unarmed???
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
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    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

  14. #14
    Regular Member decklin's Avatar
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    We are unarmed because the politician behind the desk and the civilian on the couch are the ones who make up the rules. Your heads would spin if you knew about all the rules we have to follow, including the ones when we were overseas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by decklin View Post
    We are unarmed because the politician behind the desk and the civilian on the couch are the ones who make up the rules. Your heads would spin if you knew about all the rules we have to follow, including the ones when we were overseas.
    Are you at liberty to enlighten us?

  16. #16
    Regular Member decklin's Avatar
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    No carrying privately owned weapons in uniform. Even if you have a cpl. You must wear a pt belt or reflective vest on a motorcycle. I know those two are kind of lame but it gets better.
    When overseas, in my case two tours in Iraq, try not to gesture or give or take anything with your left hand. That is the dirty/bad hand. They don't have toilet paper so they wipe with their left hand. I guess it never occured to anyone to use a piece of cloth that they could wash later. Even if they have to do it with canal water.
    Don't show or point the soles of your feet at them. It's insulting. So in other words watch how you sit/kneel.
    Don't drink water or eat in front of them during Ramadan.
    On my second tour things got worse. Do not audibly fart in front of them. You just watched one take a crap in the middle of the street like a dog but don't fart.
    You must be Amber on your crew served weapons. That means you can load the belt into the feed tray but do not charge the weapon. We just ignored that one. They also tried to make us go amber on our M4's as well. We fought that one.
    You had to let civilian vehicles mix with your convoy. On my first tour we would fire a warning shot before they even got close and if that did not work we would disable the vehicle.
    Don't forget about General Order 1. Among other things on there that actually made sense, no alcohol or sex, we could not even masturbate. You try going a year. Of course it was ignored by everyone. Especially one guy. He had a problem.
    A couple of my buddies who were in Afghanistan told me they were forced to go green on patrol. That means their M4's were completely unloaded. Not even a magazine in the weapon.
    There are so many things that they told us we couldn't do it was unbelievable. I know there are more things I am just not remembering. If I remember anything I'll post it. Soldiers help me out.

  17. #17
    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decklin View Post
    Snip...but it gets better.
    Do you mean it gets lamer

    I laugh every time I drive onto Ft. Lewis and see the crossing guard things; it also reminds me of hall monitors in grade school. So gay!

    "Don't drink water or eat in front of them during Ramadan" We used to do it all the time in Bahrain, would piss them off good, chased by a hungry pissed off guard with machinegun back to our room once.

    "could not even masturbate" What were you trying to do it in public, ever hear of a love sock! Maybe just a Navy thing?

    Well, as you found out when you got home they still expect us to abide by their BS here, and then are invited to disregard our culture and ways by the liberal radical PC traitors. That's the true lame part.

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    You covered a lot of the things that I can think of. Never heard of anyone going green outside the wire. We never left the gate without being red on personal and crew served weapons. Both in Iraq, and Afghan. We never really gave a crap about all the cultural no-no's. As far as on post, I looked into the policy for Fort Lewis. Pretty much states that if you live in the barracks, you have to register your weapon with the MP's, and have it stored in your unit arms room, you may check it out whenever you like and transport it unloaded to and out the gate. Living in on post housing, reg. with po-po, store in home, transport unloaded. Here's a link.
    http://www.lewis.army.mil/des/vehicl...arms%20PDF.pdf
    scroll down to 2nd page for policy



    and just for some Humor
    Last edited by Wobbles; 09-08-2011 at 04:42 PM.

  19. #19
    Regular Member decklin's Avatar
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    HAHAHA, That's the FOB I was at on my first tour! I don't remember what pad I was on though.
    I never said we abided by those rules. I just said those were the rules. As for the "love sock" we called it a fifi. Roll a sock over on itself, insert latex glove from IFAK (Emergency First Aid Kit) then squirt in some surgilube. Also from IFAK.
    So, Navy, huh? And you were actually outside the wire? What were you? MWD? EOD?

  20. #20
    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decklin View Post
    HAHAHA, That's the FOB I was at on my first tour! I don't remember what pad I was on though.
    I never said we abided by those rules. I just said those were the rules. As for the "love sock" we called it a fifi. Roll a sock over on itself, insert latex glove from IFAK (Emergency First Aid Kit) then squirt in some surgilube. Also from IFAK.
    So, Navy, huh? And you were actually outside the wire? What were you? MWD? EOD?
    Wayyyy outside the wire, like haze gray underway, or just on the beach supporting carrier flight operations from Bahrain, and other holes around the world. That's a past life, all retired now.

  21. #21
    Regular Member decklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    Wayyyy outside the wire, like haze gray underway, or just on the beach supporting carrier flight operations from Bahrain, and other holes around the world. That's a past life, all retired now.
    Please don't take this the wrong way. I don't want to start something but your comment made me laugh. We used to send our guys to Bahrain, Dubai and Qatar when they needed some rest & relaxation.
    Last edited by decklin; 09-08-2011 at 08:57 PM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decklin View Post
    Please don't take this the wrong way. I don't want to start something but your comment made me laugh. We used to send our guys to Bahrain, Dubai and Qatar when they needed some rest & relaxation.
    None taken, I saw it as the same, off the ship hit the ASU, cold bear and pizza at the desert Dome, and a hotel room vs. an 180 man berthing. Just happened to be where my squadron detachment from VRC-30 operated out of when in the gulf. My times there were post storm and pre freedom.

  23. #23
    Regular Member decklin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    None taken, I saw it as the same, off the ship hit the ASU, cold bear and pizza at the desert Dome, and a hotel room vs. an 180 man berthing. Just happened to be where my squadron detachment from VRC-30 operated out of when in the gulf. My times there were post storm and pre freedom.
    Sounds pretty cool.

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    We were under Navy command for this last tour to afgahn. Not bad to work for at all, they let us do our thing the way we knew it needed to be done. Pretty much said, "it's you're job, do it as you please as long as it's successful". So we did, and it was.
    Had a couple higher ups roll out on one patrol. stopped for possible ied, lt cmdr said "what now", "we poke at it, if it goes boom, we know we found one". he left us to our business after that haha

  25. #25
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decklin View Post
    no alcohol or sex, we could not even masturbate. You try going a year.
    Wait until you've been married 30 years. That's the norm.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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