since9
Campaign Veteran
Does a sign denying firearms in a business carry the weight of "notice of trespass?"
I'm starting this new thread to continue a discussion that was off-topic in its original thread. The discussion involves whether or not "a sign denying firearms in a business carries the weight of 'notice of trespass.'"
wrightme, you are demanding that simple terms in common law be explained to your satisfaction in either statute or case law. Since both the legislators and the courts expect citizens to know and understand common law terms such as "unlawful," "trespass," and "posted," particularly as they're well-covered in your average dictionary, they don't waste their or the public's time explaining them in detail.
I must be a fool, as that's what I'm about to do!
Let's start with definitions, courtesy of Merriam-Webster:
trespass : an unlawful act committed on the person, property, or rights of another; especially : a wrongful entry on real property
trespass (v): to commit a trespass
unlawful: not lawful
lawful: a : being in harmony with the law <a lawful judgment>; b : constituted, authorized, or established by law : rightful <lawful institutions>
posted: a : to publish, announce, or advertise by or as if by use of a placard; d: to forbid (property) to trespassers under penalty of legal prosecution by notices placed along the boundaries
Is this sufficient, or do I need to define "penalty," "prosecution," and "boundaries?"
Phase 2: The Law - Statute
C.R.S. 188-4-504. Third degree criminal trespass: (1) A person commits the crime of third degree criminal trespass if such person unlawfully enters or remains in or upon premises of another.
C.R.S. 18-4-504.5. Definition of premises. As used in sections 18-4-503 and 18-4-504, "premises" means real property, buildings, and other improvements thereon, and the stream banks and beds of any nonnavigable fresh water streams flowing through such real property.
Phase 3: Detailed analysis of trespass in Colorado, on Lawyers.com
Key points:
- trespass requires physical intrusion
- the intrusion must be intentional, but does not need to be wilfull (against a specific property owner)
- the trespassed property must belong to another
- the intrusion must be done without permission
When it comes to trespassing a store with a posted "no firearms" or "no open carry of firearms" sign, the fourth point is applicable. The posted sign specifically forbids entry under the condition of a firearm or open carry. That's a denial of permission. One might have a defense if they could not read, could not read the language in which it was posted, or if the sign was not readily visible. The Chapel Hills Mall, for example, posts most entrances with "No Firearms," but it's entirely defensible, as it's one of roughly a dozen rules on a brass placard, none of which are legible when viewed from point along the entrance path taken by visitors to the mall. In fact, I seriously doubt more than 10% of mall visitors are even aware the placard exists.
In closing, commensurate with the C.R.S. and normative definitions used therein and found in Merriam-Webster and other dictionaries, when a store owner posts a legible sign stating "No Firearms" or "No Open Carry of Firearms" (or similar verbiage), that store owner is prohibiting entry to his property under the conditions specified on the signs. By definition and C.R.S., an entry onto the premises under those conditions is unlawful as it is not only without the permission of the owner, but it is in direct violation of the owner's willful, posted intent to the contrary.
Case in point: Goodwill has recently posted its Colorado Springs stores with a "No Open Display of Firearms." If I walked into the store while OCing, would I be trespassing under Colorado law?
You betcha! Here's why:
1. It's posted right next to the door.
2. It's in English
3. I read English
4. It's posted in a type size and face that's clearly legible to anyone entering the store.
5. It describes the conditions under which entry onto their premises is prohibited.
That and my foot crossing their threshold while OCing is sufficient legal grounds for establishing trespass here in the State of Colorado.
Sigh. For me (at least for me), that isn't what this is about at all.
...
Can YOU point to the case law that mentions that a sign denying firearms in a business carries the weight of "notice of trespass" under CO statute?
I'm starting this new thread to continue a discussion that was off-topic in its original thread. The discussion involves whether or not "a sign denying firearms in a business carries the weight of 'notice of trespass.'"
wrightme, you are demanding that simple terms in common law be explained to your satisfaction in either statute or case law. Since both the legislators and the courts expect citizens to know and understand common law terms such as "unlawful," "trespass," and "posted," particularly as they're well-covered in your average dictionary, they don't waste their or the public's time explaining them in detail.
I must be a fool, as that's what I'm about to do!
Let's start with definitions, courtesy of Merriam-Webster:
trespass : an unlawful act committed on the person, property, or rights of another; especially : a wrongful entry on real property
trespass (v): to commit a trespass
unlawful: not lawful
lawful: a : being in harmony with the law <a lawful judgment>; b : constituted, authorized, or established by law : rightful <lawful institutions>
posted: a : to publish, announce, or advertise by or as if by use of a placard; d: to forbid (property) to trespassers under penalty of legal prosecution by notices placed along the boundaries
Is this sufficient, or do I need to define "penalty," "prosecution," and "boundaries?"
Phase 2: The Law - Statute
C.R.S. 188-4-504. Third degree criminal trespass: (1) A person commits the crime of third degree criminal trespass if such person unlawfully enters or remains in or upon premises of another.
C.R.S. 18-4-504.5. Definition of premises. As used in sections 18-4-503 and 18-4-504, "premises" means real property, buildings, and other improvements thereon, and the stream banks and beds of any nonnavigable fresh water streams flowing through such real property.
Phase 3: Detailed analysis of trespass in Colorado, on Lawyers.com
Key points:
- trespass requires physical intrusion
- the intrusion must be intentional, but does not need to be wilfull (against a specific property owner)
- the trespassed property must belong to another
- the intrusion must be done without permission
When it comes to trespassing a store with a posted "no firearms" or "no open carry of firearms" sign, the fourth point is applicable. The posted sign specifically forbids entry under the condition of a firearm or open carry. That's a denial of permission. One might have a defense if they could not read, could not read the language in which it was posted, or if the sign was not readily visible. The Chapel Hills Mall, for example, posts most entrances with "No Firearms," but it's entirely defensible, as it's one of roughly a dozen rules on a brass placard, none of which are legible when viewed from point along the entrance path taken by visitors to the mall. In fact, I seriously doubt more than 10% of mall visitors are even aware the placard exists.
In closing, commensurate with the C.R.S. and normative definitions used therein and found in Merriam-Webster and other dictionaries, when a store owner posts a legible sign stating "No Firearms" or "No Open Carry of Firearms" (or similar verbiage), that store owner is prohibiting entry to his property under the conditions specified on the signs. By definition and C.R.S., an entry onto the premises under those conditions is unlawful as it is not only without the permission of the owner, but it is in direct violation of the owner's willful, posted intent to the contrary.
Case in point: Goodwill has recently posted its Colorado Springs stores with a "No Open Display of Firearms." If I walked into the store while OCing, would I be trespassing under Colorado law?
You betcha! Here's why:
1. It's posted right next to the door.
2. It's in English
3. I read English
4. It's posted in a type size and face that's clearly legible to anyone entering the store.
5. It describes the conditions under which entry onto their premises is prohibited.
That and my foot crossing their threshold while OCing is sufficient legal grounds for establishing trespass here in the State of Colorado.
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