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Thread: Does concealed carry prevent crime?

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Does concealed carry prevent crime?

    I figure I'll keep the Fl page going while trying not to rehash the exact same stuff. Then we can all commiserate about Fl's OC situation. A few more years from now, hopefully I'll be at a place in my life where I have the time/funds to actually try and do something about it (if we're still in the same situation) instead of writing on OCDO.


    I don't believe John Lott that concealed carry reduces crime. I'll admit that his book sort of drowned me in statistics. My argument is a very small % of people have carry permits. A small fraction of those people who have the permit ever carry a concealed firearm on their person. Almost all people you see out in public are unarmed. Many people in Fl do have firearms in their vehicles, but not afoot.

    Criminals don't break into people's houses when they know someone is home. If you break into someones house at night in Fl, you die. Period. Is the rate low because they don't know who is armed and who is not? Well, yes. But they know their chance of survival is not good. They assume you are armed.

    Something like this can never happen in the state of Florida:http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...encounter.html

    According to the florida retail federation, it would have been better if this store owner were robbed or dead. If the OP was CC, this incident may have ended up with bullets flying. Is that the outcome they would prefer?

    Tying this incident into the above paragraph, I wonder if these would be perps will be deterred in the future. They may not have to see an openly carried gun. They may now be more conscious of the fact that people in public carry weapons that they can't see.

    Who can doubt that open carry has prevented many crimes in other states in incidents that no one knows about-where only the would be perp knows?

    I think concealed carry is better than nothing but that's not saying much. I think there are specific circumstances where it would be preferable, tactically speaking. For example, I see the sense in Air Marshalls carrying concealed. The threat you are arming against is focused, committed, and highly motivated. I think for you and me, OC is superior because it will deter almost all common criminals who see it. If they don't see it, you're on them instantly. And OC is also the most effective political statement you can make without saying a word.

    Oh well.
    Last edited by 77zach; 09-07-2011 at 10:29 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    That is a great story. I firmly believe that Open Carry deters MOST crime. There are a few situations where it could land you in trouble, but those situations are highly unlikely. One example would be someone robbing a bank. If they notice that you have a gun before you notice them, they are already committing the crime, so they may just choose to shoot you. Another example would be someone grabbing your gun. But, like I said, the odds of either of those things happening are slim. I think there has been one gun grab in the history of the U.S. . The benefits of Open Carry certainly outweigh the risks.

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    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
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    To a criminal, a potential victim whether unarmed or carrying concealed appear essentially the same. If every person in Florida who had a concealed carry license carried openly, it would still be only about 3% of the eligible population. So in a crowd of 1000 people, why would a criminal pick on one of the 30 people openly carrying a gun when there are 970 unarmed people from whom to choose?
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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich7553 View Post
    To a criminal, a potential victim whether unarmed or carrying concealed appear essentially the same. If every person in Florida who had a concealed carry license carried openly, it would still be only about 3% of the eligible population. So in a crowd of 1000 people, why would a criminal pick on one of the 30 people openly carrying a gun when there are 970 unarmed people from whom to choose?
    I think it would serve as a reminder that people are armed in public. I know many people who are somewhat surprised to learn that there is a legal avenue to carrying a weapon in public. The underclass from which criminals come from is even more ignorant. The criminal element is aware guns are legal and generally present in the home, but assume the rate outside the home is essentially 0. If 1/200 people OCed on a daily basis (which admittedly happens nowhere in this country), the thought process of the bad guy would have to change, it seems to me.

    I would imagine that businesses and pedestrians in close proximity to a police station enjoy a higher degree of safety from attack. Same principle I'm trying to get at. The people around the police station may still be unarmed, but the bad guy is worried about what/who may be close by.

    With how few people carry, I'll concede you are right though. The main reason I would want to carry openly is that I want to avoid any confrontation in the first place. It seems like such a more sensible option, but we don't have the option because a few bed wetters say ignorance is bliss.
    Last edited by 77zach; 09-08-2011 at 07:51 AM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    I think it would serve as a reminder that people are armed in public. I know many people who are somewhat surprised to learn that there is a legal avenue to carrying a weapon in public. The underclass from which criminals come from is even more ignorant. The criminal element is aware guns are legal and generally present in the home, but assume the rate outside the home is essentially 0. If 1/200 people OCed on a daily basis (which admittedly happens nowhere in this country), the thought process of the bad guy would have to change, it seems to me.

    I would imagine that businesses and pedestrians in close proximity to a police station enjoy a higher degree of safety from attack. Same principle I'm trying to get at. The people around the police station may still be unarmed, but the bad guy is worried about what/who may be close by.

    With how few people carry, I'll concede you are right though. The main reason I would want to carry openly is that I want to avoid any confrontation in the first place. It seems like such a more sensible option, but we don't have the option because a few bed wetters say ignorance is bliss.
    Bingo!
    Rich
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    According to Rick Perry it does. Perry doesnt want the bad guys to know he has a gun, so he says. Conceald carry prevents crime because the bad guys dont know if you have a gun or not.
    WHAT A JOKE! Haaaa!
    Hide your gun so the would be criminal cant see it. If the would be criminal cant see your weapon then he wont be detered!
    Hang your 45 off your hip to let all would be criminals know they are about to get shot if they attempt anything.
    So the would be criminal finds themself another target, such as someone concealing a hangun.

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    i have to agree that having your firearm displayed does deter crime from happening...why the hell woudl a criminal want to rob/carjack/hurt anyone in a place where some1 has as gun strapped to his hip and openly displayed????

    he would easily rob/carjack/hurt some1 if he didnt know people were carrying there!

    honestly, if we had a choice of either CC or OC, i would pick OC everyday...
    1. its more comfortable
    2. i can carry a bigger gun
    3. the chance of crimes are less

  8. #8
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Concealed carry reduces crime the same way that only having unmarked police cars reduces speeding. If you can't see a police car then obviously every car must be assumed to be running radar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR Redenck View Post
    According to Rick Perry it does. Perry doesnt want the bad guys to know he has a gun, so he says. Conceald carry prevents crime because the bad guys dont know if you have a gun or not.
    WHAT A JOKE! Haaaa!
    Hide your gun so the would be criminal cant see it. If the would be criminal cant see your weapon then he wont be detered!
    Hang your 45 off your hip to let all would be criminals know they are about to get shot if they attempt anything.
    So the would be criminal finds themself another target, such as someone concealing a hangun.

    OC is a visible deterrent. CC numbers ARE a deterrent, by virtue of the uncertainty factor. Where CC is not possible, the uncertainty factor is minimalized.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  10. #10
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR Redenck View Post
    According to Rick Perry it does. Perry doesnt want the bad guys to know he has a gun, so he says. Conceald carry prevents crime because the bad guys dont know if you have a gun or not.
    WHAT A JOKE! Haaaa!
    Hide your gun so the would be criminal cant see it. If the would be criminal cant see your weapon then he wont be detered!
    Hang your 45 off your hip to let all would be criminals know they are about to get shot if they attempt anything.
    So the would be criminal finds themself another target, such as someone concealing a hangun.
    That's one reason (among many) why I will not be fooled by Rick Perry and I will instead "waste" my vote on Ron Paul. When asked about OC legalization, he didn't say concealed is better BUT I support the right to OC. He said OC was stupid. If you don't believe in the right to OC, you are not a reliable champion of the right to bear arms. Thus he's a faker on everything else too.

    Two cars were in front of me this morning at an intersection. And I thought of this discussion because I did encounter a form of OC. One car had all kinds of gun related stickers and the other nothing. And I thought to myself, "If I wanted to carjack one of these vehicles, which one would I choose?"
    Last edited by 77zach; 09-08-2011 at 11:04 AM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  11. #11
    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    OC is a visible deterrent. CC numbers ARE a deterrent, by virtue of the uncertainty factor. Where CC is not possible, the uncertainty factor is minimalized.
    The minuscule number of CC permits and the even smaller population of CC permittees who actually carry is too small a percentage to worry most BGs. The most surprised guy in a confrontation, where the GG draws a weapon from concealment, is almost certainly going to be the BG who regards all non-OCrs as defenseless targets.

    How many BGs do you think study up on the statistics and decide not to be a BG because of the chance that a citizen might be armed?
    Last edited by JamesCanby; 09-08-2011 at 11:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    The minuscule number of CC permits and the even smaller population of CC permittees who actually carry is too small a percentage to worry most BGs. The most surprised guy in a confrontation, where the GG draws a weapon from concealment, is almost certainly going to be the BG who regards all non-OCrs as defenseless targets.

    How many BGs do you think study up on the statistics and decide not to be a BG because of the chance that a citizen might be armed?
    Statistics DO support the contention that crime does decrease as CC permit numbers increase. And yes, I do believe BG's know this. As example, what other rationale can be presented for the mass killings in GFSZs.........
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    I dont think it deters any crimes. If anything, it may give a thinking criminal some pause.
    How many thinking criminals-(apart from white-collar/mafiosa) have we yet seen?
    And the truly dense ones are'nt the least bit deterred by OC OR CC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    I dont think it deters any crimes. If anything, it may give a thinking criminal some pause.
    How many thinking criminals-(apart from white-collar/mafiosa) have we yet seen?
    And the truly dense ones are'nt the least bit deterred by OC OR CC.
    If it may give a thinking criminal some pause, it DOES deter some crime.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    If it may give a thinking criminal some pause, it DOES deter some crime.
    The 15 year old....urban youth, in this story, will certainly be concerned about concealed carry when he gets out of jail!

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/phil...-armed-robber/
    Last edited by 77zach; 09-08-2011 at 02:09 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    The 15 year old....urban youth, in this story, will certainly be concerned about concealed carry when he gets out of jail!

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/phil...-armed-robber/
    That is another great story!! I love it when the good guy wins. It's too bad that this "kid" is going to be out in a few years on probation because of some liberal Philly judge.

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    Regular Member ADulay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    The main reason I would want to carry openly is that I want to avoid any confrontation in the first place.
    That's one of the best reasons for me!

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Didn't seem to help deter much here

    Police looking for man who robbed officer of gun
    A thief robbed a concealed carrier of her purse.... and her concealed weapon..............................and her badge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Police looking for man who robbed officer of gun
    A thief robbed a concealed carrier of her purse.... and her concealed weapon..............................and her badge.
    Wow, that could be that guy in the MO thread....if he were a gal......

    Quote Originally Posted by QilvinLEO View Post
    Agreed. We are discussing that one situation that comes in 1 out of a 1000000 times. I just know, when I'm carrying and i look down and notice my shirt has creeped itself in between my firearm and my stomach, turning me from a CC to an OC, I immediatly reach down and pull the shirt or cover up or whatever i'm using, back over my firearm.

    And thats with a badge sitting right next to it.
    But, it can't be him/her, because if it were, the perp would be dead....

    Quote Originally Posted by QilvinLEO View Post
    This could be my law enforcment part of me talking, but I chose to conceal carry for if that day a criminal decides to attempt to make my family or myself a victim, if given the oppurtunity, they will be in the body bag. It is not to just push the criminal to murder, rape, rob etc a less prepared law abiding 19 year old girl that knows nothing about firearms.
    Last edited by wrightme; 09-08-2011 at 06:10 PM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    I figure I'll keep the Fl page going while trying not to rehash the exact same stuff.
    haha
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    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    I figure I'll keep the Fl page going while trying not to rehash the exact same stuff. Then we can all commiserate about Fl's OC situation. A few more years from now, hopefully I'll be at a place in my life where I have the time/funds to actually try and do something about it (if we're still in the same situation) instead of writing on OCDO.


    I don't believe John Lott that concealed carry reduces crime. I'll admit that his book sort of drowned me in statistics. My argument is a very small % of people have carry permits. A small fraction of those people who have the permit ever carry a concealed firearm on their person. Almost all people you see out in public are unarmed. Many people in Fl do have firearms in their vehicles, but not afoot.

    Criminals don't break into people's houses when they know someone is home. If you break into someones house at night in Fl, you die. Period. Is the rate low because they don't know who is armed and who is not? Well, yes. But they know their chance of survival is not good. They assume you are armed.

    Something like this can never happen in the state of Florida:http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...encounter.html

    According to the florida retail federation, it would have been better if this store owner were robbed or dead. If the OP was CC, this incident may have ended up with bullets flying. Is that the outcome they would prefer?

    Tying this incident into the above paragraph, I wonder if these would be perps will be deterred in the future. They may not have to see an openly carried gun. They may now be more conscious of the fact that people in public carry weapons that they can't see.

    Who can doubt that open carry has prevented many crimes in other states in incidents that no one knows about-where only the would be perp knows?

    I think concealed carry is better than nothing but that's not saying much. I think there are specific circumstances where it would be preferable, tactically speaking. For example, I see the sense in Air Marshalls carrying concealed. The threat you are arming against is focused, committed, and highly motivated. I think for you and me, OC is superior because it will deter almost all common criminals who see it. If they don't see it, you're on them instantly. And OC is also the most effective political statement you can make without saying a word.

    Oh well.

    I thought of a hypothetical situation last night as i was fading in and out of sleep:

    if a BG came up to me with a gun as i was getting in my car(unable to see my strongside), here are 2 scenarios:
    1. if i was carrying concealed, would i have enough time or be able to unconceal my gun, draw, and kill the BG?
    2. if i was carrying openly, would i have enough time to be able to draw and kill the BG?

    the only one i can answer yes on is scenario #2.
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    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    OMG!! me and my mom were just talking about that lame TV show "rookie blue"

    and i made the comment- "that guy is so scrawny, why would i be intimidated by him?"

    and she said, "why would you be intimidated by a fat out of shape guy?"

    and the OBVIOUS only reason was this: THE GUN ON HIS HIP THAT I CAN CLEARLY SEE WITH MY EYES!!!


    had a situation last year where i was pulling out from a business across a divided road- and i was getting into the middle lane in order to turn left. well, as i pulled out, i got cut off, and had to maneuver in such a way where the back end of my Nissan Titan was out in on coming traffic. had my windows down, and the car to my left coming at me yells out "yeah, well don't worry about us buddy!" and i instantly yell back "i can't help it- i didn't do it on purpose so shut up!" and as i turn to look at him, sure enough it's FHP. and he says, "oh yeah? well pull over!". he was talking on his cellphone, and told the person on the other line, "i'll call ou back i gotta go", and proceeded to pull me over for no reason.

    but the point is- my demeanor and attitude INSTANTLY changed when i saw the black and tan with the lights on top. the same thing happens when you see a gun on the hip. they can be all big and bad, but when they see that gun, their tail goes between their legs....
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammer6 View Post
    and i made the comment- "that guy is so scrawny, why would i be intimidated by him?"

    and she said, "why would you be intimidated by a fat out of shape guy?"

    and the OBVIOUS only reason was this: THE GUN ON HIS HIP THAT I CAN CLEARLY SEE WITH MY EYES!!!


    had a situation last year where i was pulling out from a business across a divided road- and i was getting into the middle lane in order to turn left. well, as i pulled out, i got cut off, and had to maneuver in such a way where the back end of my Nissan Titan was out in on coming traffic. had my windows down, and the car to my left coming at me yells out "yeah, well don't worry about us buddy!" and i instantly yell back "i can't help it- i didn't do it on purpose so shut up!" and as i turn to look at him, sure enough it's FHP. and he says, "oh yeah? well pull over!". he was talking on his cellphone, and told the person on the other line, "i'll call ou back i gotta go", and proceeded to pull me over for no reason.

    but the point is- my demeanor and attitude INSTANTLY changed when i saw the black and tan with the lights on top. the same thing happens when you see a gun on the hip. they can be all big and bad, but when they see that gun, their tail goes between their legs....
    Fail. Big time. Almost too bad that he didn't actually hit you........
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  24. #24
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammer6 View Post
    I thought of a hypothetical situation last night as i was fading in and out of sleep:

    if a BG came up to me with a gun as i was getting in my car(unable to see my strongside), here are 2 scenarios:
    1. if i was carrying concealed, would i have enough time or be able to unconceal my gun, draw, and kill the BG?
    2. if i was carrying openly, would i have enough time to be able to draw and kill the BG?

    the only one i can answer yes on is scenario #2.
    One thing that I find interesting is that in instructional self defense videos, the expert is always OCing. This is interesting, since it is always assumed you'll be CCing. Never mind that CC invalidates a great deal of said instruction. "Excuse me bad man, could you wait a few more seconds while get this pistol out of concealment or into a position that I trained in and have muscle memory for?"
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    One thing that I find interesting is that in instructional self defense videos, the expert is always OCing. This is interesting, since it is always assumed you'll be CCing. Never mind that CC invalidates a great deal of said instruction. "Excuse me bad man, could you wait a few more seconds while get this pistol out of concealment or into a position that I trained in and have muscle memory for?"
    Good point

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