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Thread: Needing a "Note from home" to carry?

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    Needing a "Note from home" to carry?

    I was recently in a gun shop that i go to often, i like the people there and they have fairly decent prices. I was talking to the owner about unrelated things then he asked about the gun i was carrying, and where i got it and whatnot. Told him how my brother got me it as a Christmas present. He then asked if i was 21, which i am not. Then he proceeded to tell me it was illegal for my brother to buy me a handgun since i wasnt 21, and i could not carry, or even possess said handgun untill im 21, or without a note from my brother stating that he knew i was in possession of the handgun and gave me permission to have it. I have heard this once before, which i still think is pure BS. However if it is somehow against the law, id be more than happy to return it to him. I cant find anything specific to this anywhere online.

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    You were fed the standard BS that the ignorant (who think they know) spout. It all stems from the federal law that states that licensed dealers may not sell a handgun to those under 21.

    Just double check your state laws.

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    Read the "AZ Open Carry" thread that's currently right below your thread: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...77#post1606677

    Lots of good info in there, and this same topic is hashed to death. In short, it sounds like your salesman had better stick to selling because he isn't entirely clear on giving legal advice.

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    Regular Member thedrewcifur's Avatar
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    it is 100% legal for you to own and carry it according to state and federal law. it was a gift to you from your brother. arizona allows carry by those 18 and older who can legally own a gun. you can legally get a handgun at under 21 by private sale or as a gift. i agree with the other poster, he should stick to selling guns.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    What he said...

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    For being people who will be completely reamed by the BATFE for getting something wrong, it's amazing how wrong gun store employees often are.

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    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    However, since you are OCing and are under 21, it would not be a bad Idea to have a statement from your brother that the firearm is yours by way of being gifted to you by him. It might preclude a problem from the semi-ignorant.

    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

    Politicians should serve two terms, one in office and one in prison.(borrowed from RioKid)

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    Regular Member acmariner99's Avatar
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    I asked these very same questions in the last thread. Carry is at the discretion of the state and possession is regulated by both the states and the federal government. The relevant federal statute that governs possession and transfer is USC Title 18 Section 922. Anything not mentioned there on the subject is then left to the states. ARS 13-3102 and 13-3111 covers what constitutes weapons misconduct and possession if under age, and age is also defined.
    Last edited by acmariner99; 09-08-2011 at 10:16 PM.

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    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    LTCDR & Gutshot

    It makes a difference because of the SEMI-IGNORANT LEO's out there who do not know the firearms laws as thoroughly as they THINK they do. What I suggested is known as "P@@#ing on an ember before it becomes a fire".

    THINK ABOUT IT.
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

    Politicians should serve two terms, one in office and one in prison.(borrowed from RioKid)

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    I figured it was probably false information, since ironically the most law-ignorant people are the FFL dealers themselves. Ive talked to LEO's about having a gun on me and when they ask where i got it (which i think only 1 or 2 has) i simply tell them i bought it. I was mainly concerned with the possibility of it being classified as a "straw purchase" since thats what the store owner told me it was. Ill be 21 next month, so ill be mainly conceal carrying, but i still like to know the laws and everything so i can help inform other people that have similar questions to mine.

    Another quick off topic question i had is that when you are the driver in a vehicle and are carrying, do you have to inform the officer you are carrying? and also does your weapon need to be completely visible, as in not on your hip? Obviously once im 21 i know i can basically do whatever i want, but i have heard mixed stories about vehicular carry under 21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by >meso.40< View Post
    I figured it was probably false information, since ironically the most law-ignorant people are the FFL dealers themselves. Ive talked to LEO's about having a gun on me and when they ask where i got it (which i think only 1 or 2 has) i simply tell them i bought it. I was mainly concerned with the possibility of it being classified as a "straw purchase" since thats what the store owner told me it was. Ill be 21 next month, so ill be mainly conceal carrying, but i still like to know the laws and everything so i can help inform other people that have similar questions to mine.

    Another quick off topic question i had is that when you are the driver in a vehicle and are carrying, do you have to inform the officer you are carrying? and also does your weapon need to be completely visible, as in not on your hip? Obviously once im 21 i know i can basically do whatever i want, but i have heard mixed stories about vehicular carry under 21.
    I would be careful with saying that you bought it. The very next question could be "where did you buy it" which opens up other issues (besides the fact that you're now lying to an officer). Saying it was a gift or simply not answering would be the best course.

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by >meso.40< View Post
    Ill be 21 next month, so ill be mainly conceal carrying, but i still like to know the laws and everything so i can help inform other people that have similar questions to mine.
    Concealed carry is illegal for under 21 per ARS 13-3102.A.2

    Another quick off topic question i had is that when you are the driver in a vehicle and are carrying, do you have to inform the officer you are carrying? and also does your weapon need to be completely visible, as in not on your hip? Obviously once im 21 i know i can basically do whatever i want, but i have heard mixed stories about vehicular carry under 21.
    Read ARS 13-3102.A.1(b) - despite misinformation being spread to the contrary, Arizona is not a "must notify" state. However, you must tell the nice police-person if you are carrying if they ask, and they do have the right to temporarily take your gun away.

    Even though the law does not require preemptive notification, it would be foolish to not tell the cop ahead of time, otherwise when he does find you have gun, you could have a very bad encounter. He's concerned for his safety - set him (or her if it's a copette) at ease. You might get out of a ticket.

    When under 21 and carrying in a vehicle, see ARS 13-3012.B.3(e) - I can see an argument made that a holster worn in a vehicle is "concelaed" despite the wording of "case, holster, scabbard, pack or luggage that is carried within a means of transportation or within a storage compartment, map pocket, trunk or glove compartment of a means of transportation."

    Keep in mind that from 1994 to 2010, there was an court decision that interpreted similar language, but in another section, to mean that the gun must be visible outside the car, from casual observation, unless it was cased and put in the glove compartment, etc.

    The passage of Constitutional Carry should have negated the court decisioin, but it's not like you can flip a switch in the minds of every police officer in the state to forget the tool they used to arrest people in the past.

    Fred

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    When did we become so afraid of the police that we feel the need to carry around a receipt for our lawfully possessed objects and the feel the need to lie to the police about how we lawfully came into possession of that object?!? Goodness... why can't we just go about our normal everyday business and quit worrying about having to cover up our perfectly legal actions because of what some cop might think about it?!?
    Odd... from someone who advocates carrying voice recording devices while exercising the same legal actions. This is Arizona... all this paranoid crap about the LEO's is unfounded. I have yet to encounter a cop/deputy/ranger/agent of any jurisdiction (State or Federal) who gave me so much as a blink about my handguns, long guns or the periodic knife I might carry of any type.

    I've carried in AZ since I was 22 years old... mostly w/o that CWP permit thing that came about in '94. (It was contrary to the AzC and still is.) 'Get stopped for a traffic thingie... Tell the LEO you're heeled. I don't care what the ARS says or doesn't say. Tell 'em where it's at, how many, what it is and then ask 'how do you wish me to proceed'? 'Saves a whole lotta problems.

    AZ cops know people carry... they assume we all do. They're cool with it, 'cause if they're 'Zonies... their parents and grand parents carried. It's nothing new. 'Whole different culture. 'Worse thing that's happened is the creeping Commiefornianisms that noobs bring with 'em. That includes paranoia and the tendacy to fill their heads with 'legal' clutter on everything. Just carry the gun responsibly or leave it home.
    Last edited by Sonora Rebel; 09-09-2011 at 04:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    Even though the law does not require preemptive notification, it would be foolish to not tell the cop ahead of time, otherwise when he does find you have gun, you could have a very bad encounter. He's concerned for his safety - set him (or her if it's a copette) at ease. You might get out of a ticket.

    Fred
    This is a double edged sword. While it might not be an issue in AZ, telling a cop that you are armed has the ability to make a situation worse if it's a cop who doesn't agree with citizen carry. Not telling the cop until asked prevents a cop from needlessly being worried about your weapon or doing something questionable because of your weapon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by >meso.40< View Post
    I was recently in a gun shop that i go to often, i like the people there and they have fairly decent prices. I was talking to the owner about unrelated things then he asked about the gun i was carrying, and where i got it and whatnot. Told him how my brother got me it as a Christmas present. He then asked if i was 21, which i am not. Then he proceeded to tell me it was illegal for my brother to buy me a handgun since i wasnt 21, and i could not carry, or even possess said handgun untill im 21, or without a note from my brother stating that he knew i was in possession of the handgun and gave me permission to have it. I have heard this once before, which i still think is pure BS. However if it is somehow against the law, id be more than happy to return it to him. I cant find anything specific to this anywhere online.
    www.handgunlaw.us

    You can own (but not buy from a licenced dealer, only private sale or gift) at 18, carry openly at 18, buy from dealer and carry concealed at 21.

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    Obviously i will be carrying openly until i turn 21, at which point i will not have to be concerned with open or concealed carry in the vehicle or on my person. The possession thing i basically knew it was legal and the FFL dealer guy was going off what he was taught. Its just surprising that so many gun dealers dont know Arizona laws. Ive been stopped more than a handful of times by LE and only can remember one unpleasant encounter.
    Most people assume a "teenager" looking person with a gun is nothing but trouble, which i think is silly at best. People think there is a proper age frame to be able to defend yourself, your family, and possibly even those around you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    I was going to post about it being illegal to conceal without a permit until you were 21 in Arizona... then I figured out you meant when you turned 21 you would carry concealed.

    I will ask you this, though... why give up the deterrent value of an openly carried firearm? If just one criminal sees your gun and decides not to attack you because of the rest of the 99.5% of the population that does not appear to be armed are much easier targets, then why not? There is no evidence that Joe Citizen is at any more danger from anyone other than LEO with either ignorance of the law or personal agendas by openly carrying.
    You have a good point about open carry, but at the same time in a situation where you would need to defend yourself you have the element of surprise on your hand, if someone sees you with a gun, and they plan on doing harm, they may go for your gun, or feel the need to take you out first since you are more of a threat. Theres good and bad about each one. Plus when im at family events, or with friends, id like to have it concealed, mainly so everyone else can be more comfortable.

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    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    This is a double edged sword. While it might not be an issue in AZ, telling a cop that you are armed has the ability to make a situation worse if it's a cop who doesn't agree with citizen carry. Not telling the cop until asked prevents a cop from needlessly being worried about your weapon or doing something questionable because of your weapon.
    Arizona is very different from other states with regard to gun laws and generally LEO attitude about them. It has been my experience that the LEO's are quite knowledgeable about the gun laws in Arizona.

    YMMV
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by >meso.40< View Post
    You have a good point about open carry, but at the same time in a situation where you would need to defend yourself you have the element of surprise on your hand, if someone sees you with a gun, and they plan on doing harm, they may go for your gun, or feel the need to take you out first since you are more of a threat. Theres good and bad about each one. Plus when im at family events, or with friends, id like to have it concealed, mainly so everyone else can be more comfortable.
    1) This is the "Open Carry" forum, so you probably won't find an overwhelming amount of support for your viewpoint on the element of surprise.

    2) I've always thought the people who talk about the aforementioned element of surprise are secretly hoping for a chance to spring that heater from its hiding place and start blasting holes in some hood. Myself? I'd rather that tweaker cruising around looking for an easy target see the pistol on my hip and keep on cruising. Maybe he'll see you and think you're an easy target (due to your concealed pistol), and you'll get your chance to come out shooting.


    Concealed carry is a surprise - open carry is a deterrent. I know which one I prefer.

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    Makes sense. Im fully aware of what forum i am posting on, being under 21 left me only one option as far as carry goes. But i think i have come to a conclusion, conceal carry when needed, but i think what im going to do is OPEN CARRY my primary firearm, and have a concealed back up gun. And no, im not some guy wanting to blast holes in someone. Merely trying to get the best of both worlds. I have been open carrying since i first turned 18, and never had to shoot anyone or anything, nor do i have plans to. Ive seen how unobservant people are in the heat of the moment, and i seriously doubt anyone that was robbing a place or something like that would notice one person with a gun on their side, and even if they did i do think that would definitely be a good deterrent. Im not trying to get in a debate which one is better, just asking for advice on the matter. There are alot of police officers who have had their own weapon turned on them, but at the same time were able to get a backup gun. Thats what ill be doing from now on, best of both worlds the way i see it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by >meso.40< View Post
    Makes sense. Im fully aware of what forum i am posting on, being under 21 left me only one option as far as carry goes. But i think i have come to a conclusion, conceal carry when needed, but i think what im going to do is OPEN CARRY my primary firearm, and have a concealed back up gun. And no, im not some guy wanting to blast holes in someone. Merely trying to get the best of both worlds. I have been open carrying since i first turned 18, and never had to shoot anyone or anything, nor do i have plans to. Ive seen how unobservant people are in the heat of the moment, and i seriously doubt anyone that was robbing a place or something like that would notice one person with a gun on their side, and even if they did i do think that would definitely be a good deterrent. Im not trying to get in a debate which one is better, just asking for advice on the matter. There are alot of police officers who have had their own weapon turned on them, but at the same time were able to get a backup gun. Thats what ill be doing from now on, best of both worlds the way i see it.
    Sounds fair.


    It is predictable as to how this subject gets worked.

    Person1: "I think I will start CC."

    Person2: "Well, you must be stupid, this is about OC, which is better..."

    And it spirals downward from there.

    Reverse the "CC" and "OC," and the result is the same. Simply stating that you want to choose one specific seems to put the opposing choice group into instant "circle the wagons" mode.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    personally i think if every single person (who was legally able to) open carried there would be significantly less violence. I mean who is going to go shoot up a place when there are 30-50 armed citizens around them at all times? Im all for open carry and concealed carry. I have no bias towards either, i was just trying to pick which one would suit me best, which obviously i have concluded a main weapon for OC and a concealed backup gun. Not to mention non-lethal defenses as well..

    Back on the topic, i went into ANOTHER gun store today, asked the dealer about the law again, he said the exact same thing as the other FFL dealers. Guess its part of the course to get the license that teaches that it is impossible to own a handgun under 21.

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    Regular Member Fisherman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by >meso.40< View Post
    personally i think if every single person (who was legally able to) open carried there would be significantly less violence.
    I think so too. Here's an article with a lot of historical stuff in it about the so-called Wild West. It could be a shorter article but read the whole thing. It's very enlightening. There are a couple of minor errors but I'll overlook them and just contact the author.

    Link: http://www.guncite.com/wild_west_myth.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix David View Post
    Arizona is very different from other states with regard to gun laws and generally LEO attitude about them. It has been my experience that the LEO's are quite knowledgeable about the gun laws in Arizona.

    YMMV
    Thats because yall dont have very many restrictive laws against the citizen.
    You can see how people in other states might feel the need to be a little cautious.

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