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Thread: OC may have prevented a crime/LEO encounter (PA)

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    OC may have prevented a crime/LEO encounter (PA)

    http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...encounter.html

    The antis say carrying (openly) doesn't deter crime and those who only CC say OC makes you a target...Once again, both are proven wrong.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member oliverclotheshoff's Avatar
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    what a great outcome to a potentially bad situation
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    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    That's a great story and there's no doubt in my mind that OC was a deterrent.

    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    ...those who only CC say OC makes you a target...Once again, [they] are proven wrong.
    They may be wrong in this case, but they are not categorically wrong.

    I'm not sure why you find cause to celebrate this point you try to make since both sides of the argument may be wrong or right depending on the circumstances.

    OC can make you a target in those cases where bad people are intent on committing a crime regardless of the obstacles. From a basic tactics standpoint one must take out armed resistance before unarmed resistance. The potential is there for an OC'er to be targeted first.

    If you or anyone reading my post disagrees, please include in your response how you would choose to ignore an armed individual if you were the perpetrator of said crime and then explain the tactical advantage to that decision.
    Last edited by Trip20; 09-08-2011 at 10:45 AM.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trip20 View Post
    That's a great story and there's no doubt in my mind that OC was a deterrent.



    They may be wrong in this case, but they are not categorically wrong.

    I'm not sure why you find cause to celebrate this point you try to make since both sides of the argument may be wrong or right depending on the circumstances.

    OC can make you a target in those cases where bad people are intent on committing a crime regardless of the obstacles. From a basic tactics standpoint one must take out armed resistance before unarmed resistance. The potential is there for an OC'er to be targeted first.

    If you or anyone reading my post disagrees, please include in your response how you would choose to ignore an armed individual if you were the perpetrator of said crime and then explain the tactical advantage to that decision.

    Simple. As in this situation, the BGs chose to avoid the confrontation by leaving. They did NOT "take out" the OCr so that they could have free reign inside the store ... they evaluated the possibilities and decoded to leave. Smart move on their part.

    And... as we always ask, nay plead ... please show us all of the verified reports of an OCr being shot first when a BG is about to rob a store...

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trip20 View Post
    That's a great story and there's no doubt in my mind that OC was a deterrent.



    They may be wrong in this case, but they are not categorically wrong.

    I'm not sure why you find cause to celebrate this point you try to make since both sides of the argument may be wrong or right depending on the circumstances.

    OC can make you a target in those cases where bad people are intent on committing a crime regardless of the obstacles. From a basic tactics standpoint one must take out armed resistance before unarmed resistance. The potential is there for an OC'er to be targeted first.

    If you or anyone reading my post disagrees, please include in your response how you would choose to ignore an armed individual if you were the perpetrator of said crime and then explain the tactical advantage to that decision.
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Simple. As in this situation, the BGs chose to avoid the confrontation by leaving. They did NOT "take out" the OCr so that they could have free reign inside the store ... they evaluated the possibilities and decoded to leave. Smart move on their part.

    And... as we always ask, nay plead ... please show us all of the verified reports of an OCr being shot first when a BG is about to rob a store...
    The only instance where an OCer was targeted was last year when someone in Milwaukee was robbed of his firearm, and he had to help the thug remove it. So 1 in <who knows how many people OC>? That is such a small margin, it is zero.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Simple. As in this situation, the BGs chose to avoid the confrontation by leaving. They did NOT "take out" the OCr so that they could have free reign inside the store ... they evaluated the possibilities and decoded to leave. Smart move on their part.
    I said OC has the potential to make one a target in situations where obstacles (ie.,.... OC'er on premises) do not serve as a deterrent to someone intent on doing harm. In response you reference the same story in the original post where OC is purported to be the deterrent.

    I'm not sure how that addresses my post which clearly references situations unlike the account posted on the PA forum.

    Let me make it clear that I do not believe this topic to be a significant reason NOT to OC. I of course OC myself. I do believe OC is a deterrent.

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    And... as we always ask, nay plead ... please show us all of the verified reports of an OCr being shot first when a BG is about to rob a store...
    I need not show you verified reports to assert this is a legitimate consideration. I would need to do so if my stance was that OC always makes one a target, and based on that, it's a bad idea to OC. I don't believe that at all. Since I believe the world is conditional I realize absolute statements are inherently incorrect in most cases.

    If I may make an assumption; we're all logical folks who understand basic tactics. Thus, I know how any one of us would handle a situation where we're tasked with committing an armed robbery. Armed resistance would be dealt with first. If you believe otherwise please, as I asked before, explain why you would make this decision and how it's a tactically sound response.

    My opinion on this has nothing to do with news reports or what I can/cannot produce as anecdotal evidence. It is based simply on how I would react if in the same scenario. I would shoot any one of you first if I was an armed robber not deterred by your OC'ing glory.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trip20 View Post
    I need not show you verified reports to assert this is a legitimate consideration. I would need to do so if my stance was that OC always makes one a target, and based on that, it's a bad idea to OC. I don't believe that at all. Since I believe the world is conditional I realize absolute statements are inherently incorrect in most cases.

    If I may make an assumption; we're all logical folks who understand basic tactics. Thus, I know how any one of us would handle a situation where we're tasked with committing an armed robbery. Armed resistance would be dealt with first. If you believe otherwise please, as I asked before, explain why you would make this decision and how it's a tactically sound response.

    My opinion on this has nothing to do with news reports or what I can/cannot produce as anecdotal evidence. It is based simply on how I would react if in the same scenario. I would shoot any one of you first if I was an armed robber not deterred by your OC'ing glory.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    Here, let me bold the part that actually matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.
    I'm not stating a rule of law, I'm stating an opinion based on how I'd react. If you don't want to have the discussion, that's fine. I'm probably asking you questions you've never been asked before and that may make you uncomfortable.
    Last edited by Trip20; 09-08-2011 at 11:43 AM.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trip20 View Post
    Here, let me bold the part that actually matters.



    I'm not stating a rule of law, I'm stating an opinion based on how I'd react. If you don't want to have the discussion, that's fine. I'm probably asking you questions you've never been asked before and that may make you uncomfortable.
    You said there were sites, we asked for proof, you said you didn't have/want to. If you have a matter of opinion, fine, but if you say something as fact, please prove it.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trip20 View Post
    Here, let me bold the part that actually matters.



    I'm not stating a rule of law, I'm stating an opinion based on how I'd react. If you don't want to have the discussion, that's fine. I'm probably asking you questions you've never been asked before and that may make you uncomfortable.
    Fine, it's how you would react when you are robbing a store and there is an OCr present. From that specific, personal opinion, you are generalizing to a blanket statement that most every armed robber would do the same. That is fallacious logic well recognized as "generalizing from a specific." Without citations or verified reports that this happens in a statistically significant way, or even at all, it's baseless and just your opinion on what might or could happen. In my opinion, I could be hit by a meteorite when walking outside, but it doesn't keep me from enjoying the sunshine.

    BTW ... your questions don't make me the least bit uncomfortable, and I find that statement rather condescending.

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    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    You said there were sites, we asked for proof...
    I just quickly skimmed through my posts and I don't see where I said I have sites or any verifiable proof of anything. I may have missed it, so please show me if that's the case and I'll correct my post because I in no way have proof of anything either way. Again I'm just basing my assertion that *the possibility exists* on what many of us would do from a tactical advantage standpoint.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trip20 View Post
    Here, let me bold the part that actually matters.

    Welcome aboard Trip. You post well.

    But in this forum there is already more adult male fantasy than even my friends engaged in a weekend at Gen Con can muster up. Just a friendly heads up that this will soon explode into debates about which school of Gunkata is the best, what to do in case of zombie invasion, and cheeseburgers. Not that there is anything wrong with that... The cheeseburger part.

    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Fine, it's how you would react when you are robbing a store and there is an OCr present. From that specific, personal opinion, you are generalizing to a blanket statement that most every armed robber would do the same. That is fallacious logic well recognized as "generalizing from a specific."
    I think it's quite clear from my posts that by and large I believe this not to be an issue or epidemic of any sort, but rather I'm simply asserting that the possibility exists that this could happen based on what a person with any basic tactical knowledge would choose to do. Are you saying you would not also respond as I would in that same situation. Wouldn't you shoot the armed guy first? Yes, while my personal opinion is my own, I'm sure if people would answer my question honestly (that I asked many posts ago.....) we'd see there are many of us who would react the same. It's not just me.

    Anyway, for you to attribute my comments as me applying them to "most every armed robber" is misleading.

    If you want me to make some broad statements I will say criminals are typically stupid from a tactical standpoint and more often, as in this story, criminals are intelligent when it comes to recognizing when it's time to move on to a softer target. That's probably why we probably don't see a lot of this.

    My problem is with people who dismiss the notion that it's a relevant consideration to think OC'ers may be targeted given the right circumstances. My problem is also with people that assume OC is stupid because one becomes a target.

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    BTW ... your questions don't make me the least bit uncomfortable, and I find that statement rather condescending.
    It's very hard for people (myself included) to imagine what they would do in a particular situation especially when it's not a behavior we can realistically imagine emulating (i.e, armed robbery). I don't find it comforting to imagine myself shooting a bunch of innocent people. That's all I meant. Do you understand my statement better now?

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Welcome aboard Trip. You post well.

    But in this forum there is already more adult male fantasy than even my friends engaged in a weekend at Gen Con can muster up. Just a friendly heads up that this will soon explode into debates about which school of Gunkata is the best, what to do in case of zombie invasion, and cheeseburgers. Not that there is anything wrong with that... The cheeseburger part.

    Damn I miss when Gen Con was in Milwaukee.....Whoops...exposed myself as a closet nerd again.

    Give Trip a break here. He's just saying that if someone was absolutely determined to rob a certain place, no matter what, the OC'er would be targeted first. It only makes sense. He's outlaying a hypothetical situation and there is no need to cite to authority. This situation actually occuring is very improbable as there is a detterant effect which Trip also agrees with. People have to stop seeing red all the time and take a post for what it says.
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    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Welcome aboard Trip. You post well.

    But in this forum there is already more adult male fantasy than even my friends engaged in a weekend at Gen Con can muster up. Just a friendly heads up that this will soon explode into debates about which school of Gunkata is the best, what to do in case of zombie invasion, and cheeseburgers. Not that there is anything wrong with that... The cheeseburger part.

    Hey how's it goin?

    This shouldn't explode in to anything at all. If it does I'll just bow out before it gets that bad. I don't need to prove a point I'm just talking with people.

    I'm just trying to be honest here and say, hey yes I agree but lets be real and say we'd all kill the armed guy first so it's not a stretch for someone to give pause and consider that being openly armed could make them a target. That's not the same as saying it always happens that way and it's a bad idea to OC because of it. This is what OC'ers usually hear from the CC crowd and I'm not from that camp. But for some reason I'm getting the same responses.

    When I ask myself these two questions I don't know why most criminals wouldn't give the same response:

    Question 1: When you go to perform this armed robbery are you going to enter the building with the firearm drawn or concealed.
    My Answer: I will enter with it concealed because it gives me the tactical advantage of surprising my targets.

    Question 2: If you see someone who is armed and you've decided to commit this crime regardless, will you shoot the armed persons first or the unarmed persons first?
    My Answer: Anyone with a firearm visible will be shot as I have to assume they will intervene and try to stop me from obtaining my goal.

    Not to Handy specifically, but anyone that doesn't like my opinion, ask yourself this: If an armed robber came in to a Kwik Trip while you were there OC'ing but did not notice at first... wouldn't you if possible turn your strong-side away from the BG to not draw his/her ire (i.e., conceal your firearm for tactical advantage)? I would.
    Last edited by Trip20; 09-08-2011 at 12:38 PM.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trip20 View Post
    Hey how's it goin?

    This shouldn't explode in to anything at all. If it does I'll just bow out before it gets that bad. I don't need to prove a point I'm just talking with people.

    I'm just trying to be honest here and say, hey yes I agree but lets be real and say we'd all kill the armed guy first so it's not a stretch for someone to give pause and consider that being openly armed could make them a target. That's not the same as saying it always happens that way and it's a bad idea to OC because of it. This is what OC'ers usually hear from the CC crowd and I'm not from that camp. But for some reason I'm getting the same responses.

    When I ask myself these two questions I don't know why most criminals wouldn't give the same response:

    Question 1: When you go to perform this armed robbery are you going to enter the building with the firearm drawn or concealed.
    My Answer: I will enter with it concealed because it gives me the tactical advantage of surprising my targets.

    Question 2: If you see someone who is armed and you've decided to commit this crime regardless, will you shoot the armed persons first or the unarmed persons first?
    My Answer: Anyone with a firearm visible will be shot as I have to assume they will intervene and try to stop me from obtaining my goal.

    Not to Handy specifically, but anyone that doesn't like my opinion, ask yourself this: If an armed robber came in to a Kwik Trip while you were there OC'ing but did not notice at first... wouldn't you if possible turn your strong-side away from the BG to not draw his/her ire (i.e., conceal your firearm for tactical advantage)? I would.
    1) I would seek cover first.
    2) If I was a bad guy, I wouldn't care about repercussions.
    3) I would turn the weak side of my body more towards them as my weak hand is my support hand if I need to draw. I would also be staring them down, analyzing the situation ("totality of the circumstances" if you will).
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    Damn I miss when Gen Con was in Milwaukee.....Whoops...exposed myself as a closet nerd again.

    Give Trip a break here.
    I am in no way attacking Mr Trip. As I said I think he posts well.

    But, if I was in the situation described...

    I personally would go into White Crane Spreads Wings followed by Repulse Monkey and then disarm the threat by removing it's spleen and maybe spinal cord. I would do this with my matched twin full auto 1911s. I'm level ten Gunkata. I would have no choice as I am so highly trained I react without thinking. Only when said threat is bleeding out on the cold, dirty floor would I let him be aware of my presence for the first and last time. I would then blend back into the Frito Lays chip rack and exit post haste with nothing more than an almost imperceptible sigh as the door closes itself.

    Or I might get pulverized by a meteor as pointed out earlier.

    The point is this is yet another shoulda, coulda, woulda thread. The truth is no one could possibly know what would happen in any situation. Or how they would react.

    Except me. I am level ten.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
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    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    I am in no way attacking Mr Trip. As I said I think he posts well.

    But, if I was in the situation described...

    I personally would go into White Crane Spreads Wings followed by Repulse Monkey and then disarm the threat by removing it's spleen and maybe spinal cord. I would do this with my matched twin full auto 1911s. I'm level ten Gunkata. I would have no choice as I am so highly trained I react without thinking. Only when said threat is bleeding out on the cold, dirty floor would I let him be aware of my presence for the first and last time. I would then blend back into the Frito Lays chip rack and exit post haste with nothing more than an almost imperceptible sigh as the door closes itself.

    Or I might get pulverized by a meteor as pointed out earlier.

    The point is this is yet another shoulda, coulda, woulda thread. The truth is no one could possibly know what would happen in any situation. Or how they would react.

    Except me. I am level ten.
    I don't care what direction this discussion turns, it was worth participating just to read this post. I can't wait to use the term Repulse Monkey in a conversation this weekend.

    I'm particularly diggin' the 1911 akimbo.

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    I am in no way attacking Mr Trip. As I said I think he posts well....
    Yup, I know. The gencon part of the post was for you. The other part wasn't. Sorry for any misunderstanding due to my lack of direction on the matter.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 09-08-2011 at 01:58 PM.
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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    Yup, I know.
    Oops. I forget the world does not always revolve around me. Except in the Colorado Forum.

    On a side note, I once almost had a girlfriend at Gen Con when it was back in Milwaukee. By girlfriend I mean I think it was a girl I saw by the artist's both who did the drawings for Steve Jackson's Micro games. It was hard to tell by her glasses, the cheese puff powder wiped down the front of her oversized fatigue jacket, and her cute mustache. To this day I regret I could not summon the courage to engage her either in conversation or D20x2 combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trip20 View Post
    I don't care what direction this discussion turns...
    Cheeseburgers are always the safe bet.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Oops. I forget the world does not always revolve around me. Except in the Colorado Forum.

    On a side note, I once almost had a girlfriend at Gen Con when it was back in Milwaukee. By girlfriend I mean I think it was a girl I saw by the artist's both who did the drawings for Steve Jackson's Micro games. It was hard to tell by her glasses, the cheese puff powder wiped down the front of her oversized fatigue jacket, and her cute mustache. To this day I regret I could not summon the courage to engage her either in conversation or D20x2 combat.
    See, you were just hanging out in the wrong spot. The LARP girls are the forward ones. You don't have to do anything but sit there looking nerdy and they get all sympathetic. Plus, If you are lucky enough to be the only one that showered that day (quite likely), your in!

    The MTG and D&D crowd didn't hold as much promise.

    Oh, and I once ate a cheeto while standing only feet away from Gary Gygax.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 09-08-2011 at 02:35 PM.
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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    What is this "shower" you speak of Sir? It is a strange and wonderful word.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    I'm Gumby dammit!

    Case and point. You just never know...




    Sometimes you just being you prevents you from committing a crime.

    http://local.sandiego.com/news/video...an-diego-fails

    Gumby walked up to the cashier and said to the clerk, “This is a robbery,” San Diego police Detective Gary Hassen said. The clerk thought it was a joke and told Gumby that he had to go back to cleaning.
    To which he replied "I'M GUMBY! DAMMIT!"


    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 09-08-2011 at 03:09 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  25. #25
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    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    But what's proper etiquette? Do I blame HH for talking about Gencon, inducing me to let my nerd out of the closet? Do I post an apology for going off topic, driving the thread further off topic, or do I dismiss the possibility of apology and risk looking like I felt entitled to post off-topic remarks? This is all so nerve racking!


    Sorry about that. Now back to your regularly scheduled thread...........
    R[ƎVO˩]UTION

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Lex malla, lex nulla

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