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Thread: How NOT to win hearts and minds open carrying...

  1. #1
    Regular Member robdoar's Avatar
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    How NOT to win hearts and minds open carrying...

    http://www.youtube.com/embed/UqpjWnQjC5s

    When you raise your voice, no-one wins.
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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robdoar View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/embed/UqpjWnQjC5s

    When you raise your voice, no-one wins.
    I'm not sure what you're saying here ... the OCr was calmly working with the restaurant manager to resolve the situation, when the ex-police officer interjected himself into the conversation and created the scene. How would you have reacted?

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    From what I saw, it was going well until the "ex-cop" (probably cop wannabe) interfered with the situation.

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    that guy in the UofA shirt

    is an absolute pr**k. He is the one that caused the whole uproar and he consistently demonstrated an aggressive attitude and was very abrasive. When he decided that he was the one who could determine who could speak and who could not he approached the other man's wife in a threatening manner. That's when the gun owner warned him not to approach her and stepped between them. Smart move. And the punk backed off. If I had been the manager of that store I would have called the sheriff and ordered the UofA punk to leave immediately.

    It is true that there are enormous benefits to quiet civil deportment while carrying, but it is also true that there is a time to stand up to self righteous a$$es that think they are in charge of everybody's life and can with impunity "put others in their place". I am personally glad the gun owner stood up for himself and didn't let some a-hole run over him and his family. There comes a time when "winning the hearts and minds" of bystanders become secondary to preserving one's rights and freedoms and standing up for personal liberty.

    If that had been me, I would have been the first one on the phone to the police asking for help and explaining that an aggressive man was threatening me and my family. That would have/could have been an important legal step in such a situation.

    I probably shouldn't comment further. just my two cents worth,
    roN

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6L6GC View Post
    is an absolute pr**k. He is the one that caused the whole uproar and he consistently demonstrated an aggressive attitude and was very abrasive. When he decided that he was the one who could determine who could speak and who could not he approached the other man's wife in a threatening manner. That's when the gun owner warned him not to approach her and stepped between them. Smart move. And the punk backed off. If I had been the manager of that store I would have called the sheriff and ordered the UofA punk to leave immediately.

    It is true that there are enormous benefits to quiet civil deportment while carrying, but it is also true that there is a time to stand up to self righteous a$$es that think they are in charge of everybody's life and can with impunity "put others in their place". I am personally glad the gun owner stood up for himself and didn't let some a-hole run over him and his family. There comes a time when "winning the hearts and minds" of bystanders become secondary to preserving one's rights and freedoms and standing up for personal liberty.

    If that had been me, I would have been the first one on the phone to the police asking for help and explaining that an aggressive man was threatening me and my family. That would have/could have been an important legal step in such a situation.

    I probably shouldn't comment further. just my two cents worth,
    roN
    Since the police were there I would most certainly have filed assault(approaching wife in threatening manner) as well as disorderly conduct charges against the "hole surrounded by ass". I do believe the manager needs to be retrained, he let a situation get out of hand. He should know the laws enough to be able to not let something get to the point it did. Most certainly the cop wannabe needed to be banned permanently from the restaurant. It is one thing to make a complaint, another to incite a incident. If he was so intimidated by the firearm why in the heck did he not keep his mouth shut. Had been dealing with a gang banger with a concealed illegal firearm the jack arse would have been toast.

    That said I do believe the incident made everybody look bad, it just does when people start yelling no matter who started it.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Alabama is a "one party consent" state with regards to recording. Also, recording in a public place where there is no expectation of privacy is completely legal. The LEO had no legal right to order you to turn off your camera....
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Alabama is a "one party consent" state with regards to recording. Also, recording in a public place where there is no expectation of privacy is completely legal. The LEO had no legal right to order you to turn off your camera....
    The LEO had no "reasonable expectation of privacy". I will be glad once this matter makes it to the SCOTUS.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    "Your pistol permit does not allow you to carry .... uh... and I can show you my permit it says. I am - uh, I Was a law enforcement officer for six years...."

    Don't show me your permit, show me your frackin' identification as an officer or bugger the eff off.

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    Regular Member robdoar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    I'm not sure what you're saying here ... the OCr was calmly working with the restaurant manager to resolve the situation, when the ex-police officer interjected himself into the conversation and created the scene. How would you have reacted?
    When you OC you are an ambassador. You cannot engage in heated debate to ignorant bystanders interjecting their opinions. You have to display impressive calm, and be the most polite, professional, and reasonable person on earth. You need to leave the manager thinking, wow, why did I ever ask that guy to leave?

    A correct response to Mr. Ex Cop would have been:

    "Sir, you're misinformed. I apologize that exercising my rights causes you to feel uncomfortable, but they are my rights none the less. The manager and I have an agreement, and this is not your concern. If you want more info on lawful open carry in Alabama, I'd be happy to inform you of the pertinent statutes, but I will not engage in an argument."

    His wife/mom the other ex-cop was vindictive and anything but helpful to the situation.

    If you want to sway the "indifferent" public's opinion toward OC, this is not the way. He did more harm than good from a PR pov.
    Last edited by robdoar; 09-08-2011 at 03:52 PM.
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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robdoar View Post
    When you raise your voice, no-one wins.
    This further solidifies my personal decision to NEVER talk to (abrasive) civilians. I owe no one an explanation while exercising my rights.

    However, if someone has some game proven strategy to win the hearts and minds of f*cktards and shares it with us I may reconsider.

    Nice unlawful order by the guy with a badge to turn the camera off too. Nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by robdoar View Post

    A correct response to Mr. Ex Cop would have been:

    "Sir, you're misinformed. I apologize that exercising my rights causes you to feel uncomfortable, but they are my rights none the less. The manager and I have an agreement, and this is not your concern. If you want more info on lawful open carry in Alabama, I'd be happy to inform you of the pertinent statutes, but I will not engage in an argument."
    When someone produces video showing that this actually works to placate some crazy stranger who has no quams about verbally assaulting an armed citizen I'll host a parade.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 09-08-2011 at 04:51 PM. Reason: for clarification
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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    Regular Member robdoar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    When someone produces video showing that this actually works to placate some crazy stranger who has no quams about verbally assaulting an armed citizen I'll host a parade.
    You can't win an argument with a "f**ktard". You can only take the higher ground. State your case calmly, or ignore him. No good can come of a heated argument.
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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robdoar View Post
    You can't win an argument with a "f**ktard". You can only take the higher ground. State your case calmly, or ignore him. No good can come of a heated argument.
    10-4
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robdoar View Post
    You can't win an argument with a "f**ktard". You can only take the higher ground. State your case calmly, or ignore him. No good can come of a heated argument.
    Amen to that!

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    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robdoar View Post
    You can't win an argument with a "f**ktard". You can only take the higher ground. State your case calmly, or ignore him. No good can come of a heated argument.
    Agreed. The man was obviously against carrying so he should not even spoke to him. I would have informed him that it was legal and if he wanted to debate to too bad. Sit there, wait for your money back, and leave.

    This man needs a muzzle for that lady. (his wife?) Her getting all excited jumping up and down like a jack russel $*#%ing terrior didn't help the situation.

    "OMFG YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO SAY THAT HIS THAT YOU HAVE NO RIGHT"
    Yes, he has a right to be an idiot. Sorry. Everyone has the right to be stupid like this man that was jumping your case...
    Last edited by Schlitz; 09-08-2011 at 05:13 PM.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

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    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    ugggg... I can't stand when people act like that. Even listening to it, was.. /shudder..

    I didn't last 5 seconds after the yakkin started.
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    I am no victim, just a poor college student who looks to the day where the rich have the living piss taxed out of them.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    I saw a lot happening in this video and nearly none of it was good. The only one who seemed to act rationally was the manager. If you are asked to either leave your firearm in your car or leave the premises, well then you've got a decision to take. The property rights of the owner or manager trump your right to carry a firearm when on his property. It's really as simple as that.

    The carrier should have quietly and respectfully appealed to the manager first and then if the manager was steadfast, go ahead and take one of the decisions mentioned in the above paragraph. Again, doing so quietly and respectfully. As for the fellow who interjected himself into the fray, just ignore him. He is of no consequence and therefore deserves no response or consideration returned by the carrier. Both screwed up in my opinion.

    An then there is the responding officer. He would not have been there, most likely, had the carrier done what I just described. So the carrier and his family could have moved off to another restaurant and had their meal the way they wished and all would have been well.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Moron ex cop !
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    I saw a lot happening in this video and nearly none of it was good. The only one who seemed to act rationally was the manager. If you are asked to either leave your firearm in your car or leave the premises, well then you've got a decision to take. The property rights of the owner or manager trump your right to carry a firearm when on his property. It's really as simple as that.

    The carrier should have quietly and respectfully appealed to the manager first and then if the manager was steadfast, go ahead and take one of the decisions mentioned in the above paragraph. Again, doing so quietly and respectfully. As for the fellow who interjected himself into the fray, just ignore him. He is of no consequence and therefore deserves no response or consideration returned by the carrier. Both screwed up in my opinion.

    An then there is the responding officer. He would not have been there, most likely, had the carrier done what I just described. So the carrier and his family could have moved off to another restaurant and had their meal the way they wished and all would have been well.
    Yup, he should have got up and left, period. Any conversation he had should have been with the manager outside, I would not even have bothered with that. And what kind of moron waits for the police when they have done nothing wrong. As it stood the cop would have taken a report and moved on or stopped the car on the road, since no crime was committed that was unlikely. A tidbit cops like it when parties involved in an argument leave.

    If he would have left the franchise owner would have sent him vouchers for food, if he called, that is how they handle complaints. My wife had a drive up make a mistake and she called just to inform them not to ask for anything, and it resulted in a $25 voucher for a $10 purchase. That was not the intent of her call but there was no need for him to ask for a refund at that time. As for the manager I disagree, he became a spectator with deer in the headlights reaction. He froze and did not eject all parties as he should have. He also should have known the law and informed the cop wannabe to leave if he had a problem. Evidently the gun was not making him nervous enough to shut his mouth.

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    In my mind this whole episode was unnecessary, you cannot argue with moronic idiots, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!

    If the OC’er had just ignored the moron in the UofA shirt instead of rising to the bait it would not have turned into a yelling match in a fast food joint. There was no reason to continue the conversation…he had already decided to leave, had his money…..it was time to go.

    The OC’er’s big mouth GF did not help matters much either, she should have stayed out of it.

    Stand up for your rights…..but we need to be aware that just because you are right….it does not mean you win the encounter.
    Last edited by .45acp; 09-09-2011 at 12:59 PM. Reason: Spellin
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by .45acp View Post
    In my mind this whole episode was unnecessary, you cannot argue with moronic idiots, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!
    Amen to that!

    I think a DC charge would have held up on all three parties in the argument.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    10-4
    I just love that cop talk...
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    I wonder why he's an EX cop... ...ok, not really.
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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    As for the manager I disagree, he became a spectator with deer in the headlights reaction. He froze and did not eject all parties as he should have. He also should have known the law and informed the cop wannabe to leave if he had a problem. Evidently the gun was not making him nervous enough to shut his mouth.
    What I meant when I said that the manager acted the most rational was that he did not get into a p*ss**g contest as the others had. I do agree that his just standing around and allowing this type of behavior to continue in his establishment was not being a manager. He should have ended this as soon as possible both for his peace of mind as well as for his employees and other customers.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 09-09-2011 at 04:56 PM.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robdoar View Post
    You can't win an argument with a "f**ktard". You can only take the higher ground. State your case calmly, or ignore him. No good can come of a heated argument.
    Ya just can't fix stupid.

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    Regular Member Shovelhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    "Your pistol permit does not allow you to carry .... uh... and I can show you my permit it says. I am - uh, I Was a law enforcement officer for six years...."
    I'm thinking,........Mall Cop?
    Assault Weapon (N) “Any firearm whose design disturbs the sleep of progressive politicians.”.

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