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Thread: What if your employer is a School District?

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    What if your employer is a School District?

    Ok, so I know our new law specifically points out that an employer may not restrict you from possessing a firearm in your vehicle, when parked in a parking lot Wis. Stat. 175.60(15m)(b). Yet, as we all know, firearms are strictly prohibited from "School Grounds".

    "A person who is a CCW licensee or out-of-state CCW licensee may
    possess a firearm within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school, but not
    in or on school grounds. Wis. Stat. 948.605(2)(b)1r."

    So, if someone works for a public school district, would it be a felony for that employee to leave their gun in their car parked in the school parking lot? what if it was unloaded and encased? Would you have to unload and encase it before you pulled into the parking lot?

    What do you guys think?

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    Regular Member oliverclotheshoff's Avatar
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    that is one heck of a scenario
    what a catch 22
    state law says you can but state and fed law also says you cant
    hmmmmm
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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mja1000 View Post
    .... Would you have to unload and encase it before you pulled into the parking lot?
    Yes... Not loaded and encased is required before being on school grounds. There is no exception for parking lots. It is not required to be in the trunk if you have a permit.
    (2) POSSESSION OF FIREARM IN SCHOOL ZONE
    (b) Paragraph (a) does not apply to the possession of a firearm:
    3. That is not loaded and is:
    a. Encased; or
    b. In a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 09-09-2011 at 10:01 AM.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oliverclotheshoff View Post
    that is one heck of a scenario
    what a catch 22
    state law says you can but state and fed law also says you cant
    State law clearly says that you may not. There is no exception in 948.605 for being a school employee. It is not the employer who is prohibiting you from carrying.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mja1000 View Post
    Ok, so I know our new law specifically points out that an employer may not restrict you from possessing a firearm in your vehicle, when parked in a parking lot Wis. Stat. 175.60(15m)(b). Yet, as we all know, firearms are strictly prohibited from "School Grounds".

    "A person who is a CCW licensee or out-of-state CCW licensee may
    possess a firearm within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school, but not
    in or on school grounds. Wis. Stat. 948.605(2)(b)1r."

    So, if someone works for a public school district, would it be a felony for that employee to leave their gun in their car parked in the school parking lot? what if it was unloaded and encased? Would you have to unload and encase it before you pulled into the parking lot?

    What do you guys think?
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the federal GFSZ law require that the permit be from the sate where the school is located? In other words, out-of-state permit means no free pass.

    http://www.gunlaws.com/Gun_Free_School_Zones_Act.pdf Section I 920(b)(ii)

    so it looks as if your state law is in conflict with the federal law - and it will be some poor schmo's bad luck to encounter the one cop who wants to refer the bust to the Assistant Deputy United States Attorney in charge of mucking things up to create a federal felon when the victim was complying with state law.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post

    so it looks as if your state law is in conflict with the federal law - and it will be some poor schmo's bad luck to encounter the one cop who wants to refer the bust to the Assistant Deputy United States Attorney in charge of mucking things up to create a federal felon when the victim was complying with state law..
    So far nobody has provided evidence of someone ever being prosecuted in any State under Federal GFSZ law while being in compliance with State law.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 09-09-2011 at 10:20 AM.

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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the federal GFSZ law require that the permit be from the sate where the school is located? In other words, out-of-state permit means no free pass.

    http://www.gunlaws.com/Gun_Free_School_Zones_Act.pdf Section I 920(b)(ii)

    so it looks as if your state law is in conflict with the federal law - and it will be some poor schmo's bad luck to encounter the one cop who wants to refer the bust to the Assistant Deputy United States Attorney in charge of mucking things up to create a federal felon when the victim was complying with state law.

    stay safe.
    I don't think you're accurate about the federal law. It doesn't say that the person must have a permit from the state where the school is located, it says the person must be licensed by the state where the school is located. That's a subtle, but important distinction. Our law says that a person with an out-of-state permit or license IS licensed by Wisconsin for the purposes of the Federal Gun Free School Zone Act.

    "175.60(2)(d) (d) For purposes of 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (ii), an out−of−state licensee is licensed by this state."
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Exclamation don't do it

    Unless it's included in the written contract between you (generic person employed by school) & the school entity that you're allowed to have the gun on school GROUNDS, it's illegal under WI law.
    Very illegal.
    Felony illegal.
    That could be an employment contract for regular teaching or maintenance or whatever, or a contract to teach a one-time class (Eddie Eagle, anyone?), or just general written permission from the principal that you (Joe Schmoe) may drive onto school property &/or come into the school while armed.

    Unfortunately, that's one carveout they made when referencing federal law in Act 35. (PDF in my sig.)
    Fed law says that with a permit issued by the state where the school is located, carry is allowed on the property & in the buildings. (I so very much want to visit UT!!)
    WI deliberately did NOT reference that part in the revised "GF"SZ law for WI.

    Now, will someone other than you know what's in that combination safe locked to & under your seat?
    Unlikely.
    And of course, the law won't stop someone intent on mass murder.
    But it'd be legal to park on the street, not legal to park in the secured school parking lot.
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun
    I don't think you're accurate about the federal law. It doesn't say that the person must have a permit from the state where the school is located, it says the person must be licensed bythe state where the school is located.
    Also in the federal law is a phrase something like
    "and before issuing such license, a background check is run by law enforcement of the state".
    So unless WI checks everyone who carries near a school, it isn't legal.
    Not that they're likely to get in trouble for only doing that, no.

    Interesting subpoint just occurred to me...
    IF an OOS licensee is stopped by a WI LEO for whatever reason,
    and that LEO runs a bg check,
    would that person then be legal to carry near a school in WI?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Also in the federal law is a phrase something like
    "and before issuing such license, a background check is run by law enforcement of the state".
    So unless WI checks everyone who carries near a school, it isn't legal.
    Not that they're likely to get in trouble for only doing that, no.

    Interesting subpoint just occurred to me...
    IF an OOS licensee is stopped by a WI LEO for whatever reason,
    and that LEO runs a bg check,
    would that person then be legal to carry near a school in WI?
    Not quite. It says they have to "verify" that the person is qualified to be licensed. Presumably this means legally able to possess a firearm. Wisconsin-issued license holders are verified by virtue of the background check conducted at the time of the issuance of the CCW license. Out-of-state licenses/permits are not valid in Wisconsin unless the issuing state required a similar background check or the person voluntarily submitted to a background check. So both WI license holders and recognized out-of-state permit/license holders are all "verified."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    State law clearly says that you may not. There is no exception in 948.605 for being a school employee. It is not the employer who is prohibiting you from carrying.
    I agree with you Interceptor, 175.60(15m)(b) doesn't hold water in this case as it is not the School District (employer) that is prohibiting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mja1000 View Post
    I agree with you Interceptor, 175.60(15m)(b) doesn't hold water in this case as it is not the School District (employer) that is prohibiting.
    Well in a way it IS the School District that is prohibiting it, since it is within their authority to grant permission.
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    Regular Member oliverclotheshoff's Avatar
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    lets think about this

    teachers are public employees therefor they workfor the state, county, city whichever it may be, and the state being over all lower levels is technically the employer and therefore they are prohibiting you from keeping a firearm in your vehicle

    would this could this argument hold up??????????
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    Quote Originally Posted by oliverclotheshoff View Post
    lets think about this

    teachers are public employees therefor they workfor the state, county, city whichever it may be, and the state being over all lower levels is technically the employer and therefore they are prohibiting you from keeping a firearm in your vehicle

    would this could this argument hold up??????????
    I don't think so. It's not the employer that is preventing you. It's federal law.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    OP are you subject to random searches?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    OP are you subject to random searches?
    No. However, I would not risk a felony charge over it.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mja1000 View Post
    No. However, I would not risk a felony charge over it.
    Then you have answered your own question~~no offense to anyone on this board but you should be asking a lawyer for this type of advice if you decide to take chances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Then you have answered your own question~~no offense to anyone on this board but you should be asking a lawyer for this type of advice if you decide to take chances.
    Absolutely, I was just posting to get opinions...and to show the danger of the generalized statements in the DOJ FAQ. "Employers can not prohibit you from you securing your gun in your vehicle on the employer's property". Well....I guess that all depends on WHO your employer is....doesn't it.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mja1000 View Post
    I agree with you Interceptor, 175.60(15m)(b) doesn't hold water in this case as it is not the School District (employer) that is prohibiting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    Well in a way it IS the School District that is prohibiting it, since it is within their authority to grant permission.
    Quote Originally Posted by mja1000 View Post
    Absolutely, I was just posting to get opinions...and to show the danger of the generalized statements in the DOJ FAQ. "Employers can not prohibit you from you securing your gun in your vehicle on the employer's property". Well....I guess that all depends on WHO your employer is....doesn't it.

    This is WAY more simple that you guys are making it to be. They are 2 separate and autonomous statutes. They are absolutely independent.
    The School District choosing not to give you explicit permission to carry on school grounds (parking lot) is not the same as them prohibiting you from carrying in the parking lot. No amount of rationalization or wishful thinking is going to change these facts.

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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    The School District choosing not to give you explicit permission to carry on school grounds (parking lot) is not the same as them prohibiting you from carrying in the parking lot.
    So if I stood holding you at gunpoint I'm not prohibiting you from leaving, I'm just not giving you explicit permission to leave. Ok. Fair enough. Makes all the difference in the world. Got it.
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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    So if I stood holding you at gunpoint I'm not prohibiting you from leaving, I'm just not giving you explicit permission to leave. Ok. Fair enough. Makes all the difference in the world. Got it.
    Apples and Astronauts... Nonsensical post is nonsensical.
    By every reasonable definition you are most definitely prohibiting someone from leaving if you are "holding" them...

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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    Apples and Astronauts... Nonsensical post is nonsensical.
    By every reasonable definition you are most definitely prohibiting someone from leaving if you are "holding" them...
    I'm glad you accept my point, although you don't realize that you do.

    By the way, your statement "The School District choosing not to give you explicit permission to carry on school grounds (parking lot) is not the same as them prohibiting you from carrying in the parking lot." is a fine example of petitio principii.
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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    am i missing something here..?

    if one is a school district employee...HOW can the district EVER give permission to do something that is against federal or state law...ie posess a firearm on the school property? Im guessing that the district/'your employer' can NEVER do so...

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    Being a long time school district employee but now retired, the only way for a firearm to be on school property in a vehicle is unloaded and encased. With explicit approval from the administration, a firearm could be used for curricular activities on school property. This of course did not apply to LE. IMHO, Act 35 did not change anything for us common folk. However, it would be wise to not "advertise" that you have a firearm in your locked vehicle in the school parking lot.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phred View Post
    However, it would be wise to not "advertise" that you have a firearm in your locked vehicle in the school parking lot.
    Amen to that!

    Buy a handgun safe, have your local shop install it in the trunk so that it cannot be removed without opening it. Just in case someone breaks in it will be unlikely they get the safe open.

    Now here is the thing that every felon knows, if they keep their mouth shut, the only way to search is through probable cause. Which means they have already committed a crime or they opened their mouth. This is why when they are caught with a firearm most times they are not charged, or the charge is thrown out because it is a unlawful search. They do lose their handgun though, they really don't care because they will acquire a gun much easier illegally than we do legally. Not to mention they pay much less for a gun than we do.

    I do not suggest breaking the law, it just is not worth it, but if you do keep your mouth shut...LOL

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