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Thread: September 18th WI Permit to Carry course

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    September 18th WI Permit to Carry course

    Henry Rahr is holding another AACFI Certified WI Permit to Carry course at the Hotel Sierra in Green Bay at 10AM on Sunday 9/18/2011
    Here is a link to upcoming classes...
    This course is not affiliated with Wisconsin Carry Inc


    http://www.aacfi.com/courses/trainercourses.php?id=106
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 09-11-2011 at 10:29 AM.

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    How does he know what the DOJ will require before they announce it? Psychic hotline? I realize one can make some reasonable assumptions based on what is stated in ACT 35, but until DOJ issues its proclamation complete certitude is not guaranteed. That is why I will not advocate for anyone to take any training that bills itself as meeting the Wisconsin requirements. I have taken a Utah course for my own amusement, but I am under no illusions that it would qualify for Wisconsin permit, nor does it need to in my case because I already posses one of the specific qualifiers as stated in ACT 35. I don't want to discourage folks from taking a class, but people cannot be sure of what the DOJ will come up with before hand. I will go as far as saying that any Person or Company that tells you that their course meets Wisconsin requirements is LYING. The probability that most of the training being pushed will qualify may be high, but if you want to gamble you don't need a trainer you need a casino. The Indians will be happy to take your money, and you might get a free drink or two out of the deal.
    Last edited by oak1971; 09-10-2011 at 03:44 PM.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oak1971 View Post
    How does he know what the DOJ will require before they announce it? Psychic hotline? I realize one can make some reasonable assumptions based on what is stated in ACT 35, but until DOJ issues its proclamation complete certitude is not guaranteed. That is why I will not advocate for anyone to take any training that bills itself as meeting the Wisconsin requirements. I have taken a Utah course for my own amusement, but I am under no illusions that it would qualify for Wisconsin permit, nor does it need to in my case because I already posses one of the specific qualifiers as stated in ACT 35. I don't want to discourage folks from taking a class, but people cannot be sure of what the DOJ will come up with before hand. I will go as far as saying that any Person or Company that tells you that their course meets Wisconsin requirements is LYING. The probability that most of the training being pushed will qualify may be high, but if you want to gamble you don't need a trainer you need a casino. The Indians will be happy to take your money, and you might get a free dink or two out of the deal.
    It is Statutory that AACFI training will be accepted and it is Statutory that Utah CCW training will be accepted. The only Administrative Code which we are waiting on is what needs to be printed on the Certificate of Training. I can tell you that Henry will personally ensure that you would receive an acceptable certificate once the requirements are published if the initial certificate is in any way lacking.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 09-10-2011 at 02:28 PM.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    It is Statutory that AACFI training will be accepted and it is Statutory that Utah CCW training will be accepted. The only Administrative Code which we are waiting on is what needs to be printed on the Certificate of Training. I can tell you that Henry will personally ensure that you would receive an acceptable certificate once the requirements are published if the initial certificate is in any way lacking.
    +1000
    That is exzctly the point I have been making. They may also mandate that trainers keep adequate records also.

  5. #5
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Trust but verify. Sorry but until its in print, its speculation.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oak1971 View Post
    Trust but verify. Sorry but until its in print, its speculation.
    Informed speculation based on known facts....

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    It is Statutory that AACFI training will be accepted and it is Statutory that Utah CCW training will be accepted. The only Administrative Code which we are waiting on is what needs to be printed on the Certificate of Training. I can tell you that Henry will personally ensure that you would receive an acceptable certificate once the requirements are published if the initial certificate is in any way lacking.
    +1
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    It is Statutory that AACFI training will be accepted and it is Statutory that Utah CCW training will be accepted. The only Administrative Code which we are waiting on is what needs to be printed on the Certificate of Training. I can tell you that Henry will personally ensure that you would receive an acceptable certificate once the requirements are published if the initial certificate is in any way lacking.

    Other than "Certificate of Completion" "Name of Class" "Name of Participant" "Signature of Instructor"...your basic cert info...I don't see where they can "require" anything else be printed...

  9. #9
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    Informed speculation based on known facts....
    A fool and his money are soon parted.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Once you learn to read, you will be forever free

  11. #11
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    I can read just fine thank you. When I read something official on the DOJ site I will consider the matter closed. Its not a hard concept to understand. Why everyone is so anxious to run out and do something even if its wrong is mystifying.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    Once you learn to read, you will be forever free
    Ya gotta laugh at these people who think they are so right & while everyone else in the know is so very wrong... Soon very soon they will be eating their own words, while looking really dumb at the same time..I am going to enjoy throwing these posts back at em when the application fine tuning is all done.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

  13. #13
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman's Avatar
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    I would hope that it goes without saying, but despite the title. Wisconsin Carry is in no way associated with this training course. Our name and logo are federally trademarked. Anyone who uses the "WI Carry" "WCI" "Wisconsin Carry, Inc." name without our permission is exposing themselves to civil liability.

    With that said, Wisconsin Carry will NEVER charge a fee for any training we offer. NEVER. We hope to offer a FREE training course.If we cannot offer a training course for FREE we will not offer one. Unfortunately, the "powers that be" that lobbied for the SHALL ISSUE law which requires you to get permission from the government to exercise your right to carry put some difficult obstacles in place. The people who lobbied for the SHALL ISSUE law (while WCI was lobbying for CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY) got it written into law that NATIONAL organizations who certify firearms instructors "qualify". Wisconsin Carry is PROUDLY not a NATIONAL organization but an ALL VOLUNTEER IN-STATE organization.

    We will continue to explore getting certification/approval to offer a training course FREE OF CHARGE but please understand that the money-train that lined up to infringe on YOUR right to carry has done ALL they could do to prevent a grass-roots in-state organization like Wisconsin Carry from being able to offer the free training we want to offer.

    Follow the money. Those who stand to profit from training did all they could to make sure the free training that WCI wants to offer would be difficult for us to get certification/approval for.

    To add one more thing. I no longer follow the OCDO forum. I was alerted to this thread from a member who also indicated that there is a facebook page called "constitutional carry for wisconsin" who is "calling out" Wisconsin Carry" for charging for training.

    Clearly whomever the person behind the "constitutional carry for Wisconsin" facebook page is, they not only jumped to conclusions assuming this thread which inappropriately indicates "WI Carry" is offering this training has anything to do with Wisconsin Carry, but they ALSO were so lazy and presumptive that they didn't take the time to email me or any WCI board member/officer to inquire about our involvement (or lack there-of) in this training.

    Its clear that anyone with a keyboard and fingers can make unfounded claims on facebook pages that they threw together on a whim.

    We incorporated a non-profit all volunteer corporation so-as to establish a professional organization that operated in an honest and professional manor. Where people get their information from is up to them, but it should go without saying "verify your source" before you do....

    Edited to add:

    almost forgot. While some keyboard commando's are making unsubstantiated libelous claims against WCI on facebook, I have been invited by the 2nd Amendment Foundation to speak and be a panelist at their "Open Carry/Concealed Carry/Constitutional Carry" session during their National "Gun Rights Policy National Conference" later this month. If anyone is interested in attending please let me know. The most notable 2nd amendment attorneys in the country including Alan Gura will be in attendance. Its a chance to get beyond the pithy non-sense of online forum soap-opera's and network with some hard-core IN-THE-KNOW right-to-carry advocates . hope to see those of you that prefer action over drama there!
    Last edited by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman; 09-11-2011 at 12:11 AM.
    www.wisconsincarry.org Wisconsin Carry, Inc. is not affiliated with opencarry.org or these web forums. Questions about discussion forum policy or forum moderation should be directed to the owners of opencarry.org not Wisconsin Carry, Inc.

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GLOCK21GB View Post
    Ya gotta laugh at these people who think they are so right & while everyone else in the know is so very wrong... Soon very soon they will be eating their own words, while looking really dumb at the same time..I am going to enjoy throwing these posts back at em when the application fine tuning is all done.
    That's the point Einstein...It isn't done. When it is done, that will be the time to look for training. Should I draw pictures?
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oak1971 View Post
    That's the point Einstein...It isn't done. When it is done, that will be the time to look for training. Should I draw pictures?
    I already have more than enough training that I KNOW will qualify. Know one has to wait to take trainiing that WE KNOW will qualify. IF you point is to not trust every training program, I concede, but it's not diffucult to find out what does qualifiy without DOJ saying a single word.

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    I already have more than enough training that I KNOW will qualify. Know one has to wait to take trainiing that WE KNOW will qualify. IF you point is to not trust every training program, I concede, but it's not diffucult to find out what does qualifiy without DOJ saying a single word.
    As do I, the larger point is the general public who may not be as informed on such matters. For them, the best bet is to keep their powder dry until the dust settles.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman;1608661]I would hope that it goes without saying, but despite the title. Wisconsin Carry is in no way associated with this training course. Our name and logo are federally trademarked. Anyone who uses the "WI Carry" "WCI" "Wisconsin Carry, Inc." name without our permission is exposing themselves to civil liability.

    QUOTE]

    There is a company advertising thier phone number as 1-xxx-WICARRY. I put x's in the numbers I don't remember. That would be 942-2779, but like said, I don't remember the area code.

  18. #18
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=BROKENSPROKET;1608682]
    Quote Originally Posted by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman View Post
    I would hope that it goes without saying, but despite the title. Wisconsin Carry is in no way associated with this training course. Our name and logo are federally trademarked. Anyone who uses the "WI Carry" "WCI" "Wisconsin Carry, Inc." name without our permission is exposing themselves to civil liability.

    QUOTE]

    There is a company advertising thier phone number as 1-xxx-WICARRY. I put x's in the numbers I don't remember. That would be 942-2779, but like said, I don't remember the area code.
    Thanks for the head's up. I'll look into it/alert our attorneys.

    2 weeks ago we had a situation with someone using a logo very close to our trademarked logo. In that case, i think it was unintentional so I emailed the organization and it was quickly resolved amicably without attorneys.

    All that aside. I hope people take it to the bank. You have my word. Wisconsin Carry will NEVER EVER charge for training to meet the states unjust infringement on the right to carry via the training mandate... As soon as we have the ability to offer it we will. We are working on it, but unfortunately there ARE nationally "certified" organizations who stacked the deck against us.
    www.wisconsincarry.org Wisconsin Carry, Inc. is not affiliated with opencarry.org or these web forums. Questions about discussion forum policy or forum moderation should be directed to the owners of opencarry.org not Wisconsin Carry, Inc.

  19. #19
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman;1608705]
    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post

    Thanks for the head's up. I'll look into it/alert our attorneys.

    2 weeks ago we had a situation with someone using a logo very close to our trademarked logo. In that case, i think it was unintentional so I emailed the organization and it was quickly resolved amicably without attorneys.

    All that aside. I hope people take it to the bank. You have my word. Wisconsin Carry will NEVER EVER charge for training to meet the states unjust infringement on the right to carry via the training mandate... As soon as we have the ability to offer it we will. We are working on it, but unfortunately there ARE nationally "certified" organizations who stacked the deck against us.
    Based on what I have seen thus far, getting a cert as a "trainer" shouldn't be a huge deal. Time and money, but not insurmountable. I would do it for free on a local basis if I had the certification.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

  20. #20
    Regular Member comp45acp's Avatar
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    It should be noted that AACFI was leading the charge for very high training requirements. Their head guys traveled down from MN and sat in the front row at the hearing in the Capitol and testified that in
    depth training was needed. It should also be noted that they recently required all of their instructors in WI to sign non-compete letters in that they would teach ONLY AACFI courses. Many have refused seeing it for what it is, a money grabbing scheme and have left the organization. AACFT is now in the process of trying to recruit new instructors to take their place.
    Jim Burgess
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  21. #21
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by comp45acp View Post
    ... It should also be noted that they recently required all of their instructors in WI to sign non-compete letters in that they would teach ONLY AACFI courses. Many have refused seeing it for what it is, a money grabbing scheme and have left the organization. ..
    A trainer does not pay AACFI any more membership fees if they train 1 or 10 different types of courses. AACFI does not get a cut of training fees. I see zero evidence of any "Scheme"... What I do see is evidence of a business.
    AACFI trainers are not part of a charity organization. It is set up for trainers to run training as a business. AACFI certifies its trainers. Just like anything, you can seek "free" training from sources or you can seek certified training.

    AACFI was founded by and is supported by leading United States Second Amendment experts, leading Second Amendment advocates and championship marksmen. All are dedicated to maintaining America's longstanding respected and admired traditions of lawful firearms possession and use.
    AACFI courses are design in consultation with top firearms and self defense lawyers and the nations top firearms self defense trainers. Our textbooks set the bar for permit to carry training.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 09-11-2011 at 10:19 AM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman View Post
    I would hope that it goes without saying, but despite the title. ......!
    Regarding the title, it refers to a WI Carry course as opposed to a MN or UT Carry course.... The title is accurate as the course discusses WI law as it pertains to Open and Concealed Carry. The OP clearly states that it is an AACFI course. It should be obvious that I never intended to associate Wisconsin Carry Inc with this training.
    I edited the post so that there is less confusion by those who assume the words "Wisconsin" and "Carry" when used together in a sentence automatically have anything to do with Wisconsin Carry Inc... I believe it to be an unreasonable assumption in the context it was used. I think that it is obvious that the intentions were not honorable when the over-reaction was posted on facebook and an unsubstantiated attack on WCI was made.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 09-11-2011 at 10:47 AM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oak1971 View Post
    I can read just fine thank you. When I read something official on the DOJ site I will consider the matter closed. Its not a hard concept to understand. Why everyone is so anxious to run out and do something even if its wrong is mystifying.
    Since Act 35 (if you bother to read it) clearly dictates training requirements, seeking training now is not "wrong".
    Here is another nugget for the conspiracy theorists. AACFI trainers were involved in the past 6+ years with the Wisconsin Carry /PPA Bills. I don't think that there is any doubt of AACFI training being accepted....
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 09-11-2011 at 09:54 AM.

  24. #24
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    the only valid training i recognize is training provided by WisCarry, or by fellow members, or associates. Profiteers and other programs DONT offer what a person needs. To them i say; Training?! i dont need your steeeeeeenkin training.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    I will state this again and in very clear terms... This training is not associated with Wisconsin Carry Inc in any manner and has not been endorsed in any form by Wisconsin Carry Inc.

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