September 18th WI Permit to Carry course

comp45acp said:

... It should also be noted that they recently required all of their instructors in WI to sign non-compete letters in that they would teach ONLY AACFI courses. Many have refused seeing it for what it is, a money grabbing scheme and have left the organization. ..

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A trainer does not pay AACFI any more membership fees if they train 1 or 10 different types of courses. AACFI does not get a cut of training fees. I see zero evidence of any "Scheme"... What I do see is evidence of a business.
AACFI trainers are not part of a charity organization. It is set up for trainers to run training as a business. AACFI certifies its trainers. Just like anything, you can seek "free" training from sources or you can seek certified training.

AACFI was founded by and is supported by leading United States Second Amendment experts, leading Second Amendment advocates and championship marksmen. All are dedicated to maintaining America's longstanding respected and admired traditions of lawful firearms possession and use.
AACFI courses are design in consultation with top firearms and self defense lawyers and the nations top firearms self defense trainers. Our textbooks set the bar for permit to carry training.

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Wisconsin Carry said:

I would hope that it goes without saying, but despite the title. ......!

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Regarding the title, it refers to a WI Carry course as opposed to a MN or UT Carry course.... The title is accurate as the course discusses WI law as it pertains to Open and Concealed Carry. The OP clearly states that it is an AACFI course. It should be obvious that I never intended to associate Wisconsin Carry Inc with this training.
I edited the post so that there is less confusion by those who assume the words "Wisconsin" and "Carry" when used together in a sentence automatically have anything to do with Wisconsin Carry Inc... I believe it to be an unreasonable assumption in the context it was used. I think that it is obvious that the intentions were not honorable when the over-reaction was posted on facebook and an unsubstantiated attack on WCI was made.

oak1971 said:

I can read just fine thank you. When I read something official on the DOJ site I will consider the matter closed. Its not a hard concept to understand. Why everyone is so anxious to run out and do something even if its wrong is mystifying.

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Since Act 35 (if you bother to read it) clearly dictates training requirements, seeking training now is not "wrong".
Here is another nugget for the conspiracy theorists. AACFI trainers were involved in the past 6+ years with the Wisconsin Carry /PPA Bills. I don't think that there is any doubt of AACFI training being accepted....:dude:

the only valid training i recognize is training provided by WisCarry, or by fellow members, or associates. Profiteers and other programs DONT offer what a person needs. To them i say; Training?! i dont need your steeeeeeenkin training.

I will state this again and in very clear terms... This training is not associated with Wisconsin Carry Inc in any manner and has not been endorsed in any form by Wisconsin Carry Inc.

McX said:

the only valid training i recognize is training provided by WisCarry, or by fellow members, or associates. Profiteers and other programs DONT offer what a person needs. To them i say; Training?! i dont need your steeeeeeenkin training.

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The training offered for a fee is far beyond the minimum training requirement required by law. The facts are that there is no Statutory requirement that the training informs you of WI law, use of force or other legal implications when deadly force is used. WI law requires only that it is basic firearms safety training. It is not even required to be handgun safety training.
It is a personal decision and sometimes the responsible one for an individual to seek advanced training vs the bare legal minimum depending on their past firearms experience and competency level.

i the best training i have received has been through association with other WisCarry members, and their associates. Free or at little cost. I make use of my resources, and the membership of Wisconsin Carry is in my opinion the best of resources.

Interceptor_Knight said:

Since Act 35 (if you bother to read it) clearly dictates training requirements, seeking training now is not "wrong".
Here is another nugget for the conspiracy theorists. AACFI trainers were involved in the past 6+ years with the Wisconsin Carry /PPA Bills. I don't think that there is any doubt of AACFI training being accepted....:dude:

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They got involved to line their own pockets, and did everything in their power to create a customer base through legislation. Nothing more or less.

Jim over at Constitutional Carry on Facebook is an utter moron. He sure made it easy to dislike that page.... <finger>

Wisconsin Carry said:

... Anyone who uses the "WI Carry" "WCI" "Wisconsin Carry, Inc." name without our permission is exposing themselves to civil liability........ this thread which inappropriately indicates "WI Carry" is offering this training ...

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I do not believe that the words WI and Carry used together in the context to describe the type of Carry course being offered inferred the name Wisconsin Carry Inc. or any endorsement or association by WCI. I have requested that the thread title be edited to make an association more difficult if not impossible for those 3rd parties wishing to cause trouble.

Wisconsin Carry said:

I would hope that it goes without saying, but despite the title. Wisconsin Carry is in no way associated with this training course. Our name and logo are federally trademarked. Anyone who uses the "WI Carry" "WCI" "Wisconsin Carry, Inc." name without our permission is exposing themselves to civil liability.

With that said, Wisconsin Carry will NEVER charge a fee for any training we offer. NEVER. We hope to offer a FREE training course.If we cannot offer a training course for FREE we will not offer one. Unfortunately, the "powers that be" that lobbied for the SHALL ISSUE law which requires you to get permission from the government to exercise your right to carry put some difficult obstacles in place. The people who lobbied for the SHALL ISSUE law (while WCI was lobbying for CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY) got it written into law that NATIONAL organizations who certify firearms instructors "qualify". Wisconsin Carry is PROUDLY not a NATIONAL organization but an ALL VOLUNTEER IN-STATE organization.

We will continue to explore getting certification/approval to offer a training course FREE OF CHARGE but please understand that the money-train that lined up to infringe on YOUR right to carry has done ALL they could do to prevent a grass-roots in-state organization like Wisconsin Carry from being able to offer the free training we want to offer.

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For what it's worth...even if your instructors are IE NRA certified, you could still teach free non NRA classes for WI permits.

mrjam2jab said:

For what it's worth...even if your instructors are IE NRA certified, you could still teach free non NRA classes for WI permits.

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Yes, I have a several friends that are NRA Instructors and DNR Instructors who are WCI Members that are just chomping at the bit to do WCI FREE TRAINING as soon as WCI has it set up.

I am hesitant to post - BUT

I do not begrudge any man the right to make a living. But, having said that, I have a suggestion based on experience.

Posting for a course that costs $125.00 among this group of cost-conscious individuals will likely not merit you as much in course fees as a deeply reduced fee schedule that will attract even more students. After all, finding one student willing to pay $125 does not beat finding 10 students willing to pay $40. Providing discounts to WI Carry and NRA members goes a long way toward getting students.

By way of example, I just taught a course to get the UT Concealed Firearm permit at deeply reduced prices. The UT application fee + my course fee was substantially below your advertised fee for a course that will likely (but not guaranteed to be) accepted as training by WI. A UT Permit by law is proof of training in WI and thus 24 SE Wisconsin residents lined up to sign up. My course fees were:

Military Veteran with the Military Order of the Purple Heart - Course Fee = $10 (Spouse = $15)
Military Veteran with the CIB (or equiv) Course Fee = $15 (Spouse = $20)
Military Veteran - non combat - Course fee = $20 (Spouse = $25)
Current Law Enforcement Officer - Course Fee = $20 (Spouse = $25)
Wisconsin Carry Paid Member AND NRA Member = $20 (Spouse = $25)
Wisconsin Carry Paid Member = $25 (Spouse = $30 - if not also a member of WI Carry)
Person who is a member of a 2A group not NRA or WI Carry - Course fee = $35 (non member Spouse = $40)
Citizen who is not a member of a 2A group and has not joined WI Carrry before the class - Course Fee = $40.

These fees amounted to each student paying part of my gas expenses for driving from UT to WI, my hotel room, and my meals.

I also offered a companion NRA Basic Pistol Course (8 students) who paid MSRP for the textbook + the price schedule shown above.

I had a long day including the range time required for the NRA Courses, but my students paid for my gas, hotel rooms, and meals.

My prediction is that unless you offer similar discounts - based on military and firearms experience, you will not make as much money as you would if you did copy the example of the Yellow Cat and offer such discounts.

Yellow Cat out -

I googled WCI, man, this Nik Clark guy and his club will be busy with about a zillion lawsuits.

jpm84092 said:

I do not begrudge any man the right to make a living. But, having said that, I have a suggestion based on experience.

Posting for a course that costs $125.00 among this group of cost-conscious individuals will likely not merit you as much in course fees as a deeply reduced fee schedule that will attract even more students. After all, finding one student willing to pay $125 does not beat finding 10 students willing to pay $40. Providing discounts to WI Carry and NRA members goes a long way toward getting students.

By way of example, I just taught a course to get the UT Concealed Firearm permit at deeply reduced prices. The UT application fee + my course fee was substantially below your advertised fee for a course that will likely (but not guaranteed to be) accepted as training by WI. A UT Permit by law is proof of training in WI and thus 24 SE Wisconsin residents lined up to sign up. My course fees were:....

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I hear your feedback and I support your ability to offer and it is honorable that you provide a cheap class while basically volunteering your time doing what I suppose you imagine to be a community service. There are out-of-state trainers coming in to WI by the bus loads offering $80 Utah/WI Permit to Carry classes. They offer no certification for their curriculum other than being an approved Utah trainer.
An AACFI instructor simply has to charge more as this is a business and not a volunteer organization. The AACFI training materials can easily cost the instructor $35 per student. Add on room rental, mileage and meals and the costs will go up from there. Nobody is holding a class for 1 student. Class size can easily be 20-30 students. I have not heard anyone complain about not being able to fill classes. What support network are you offering to your students after the training? Once a student takes an AACFI course they have AACFI resources available.
That being said, feel free to start another thread advertising your course dates and fees. You are hijacking this one by pimping your classes in it.

Interceptor_Knight,
If You had actually bothered to read jbm's post you would see that he had already done the class he offered so he wasn't advertising anything. And If you like the classes offered for $125 so much then by all means take them no one is saying not to. Everyone is free to spend or throw away (whatever you opinion of the situation may be). That being said I happen to know Jbm personally as do many on here, so if members on here choose not to take a course from someone they don't know to instead to take one from someone they know and trust don't get bent out of shape.

Interceptor_Knight said:

I hear your feedback and I support your ability to offer and it is honorable that you provide a cheap class while basically volunteering your time doing what I suppose you imagine to be a community service. There are out-of-state trainers coming in to WI by the bus loads offering $80 Utah/WI Permit to Carry classes. They offer no certification for their curriculum other than being an approved Utah trainer.
An AACFI instructor simply has to charge more as this is a business and not a volunteer organization. The AACFI training materials can easily cost the instructor $35 per student. Add on room rental, mileage and meals and the costs will go up from there. Nobody is holding a class for 1 student. Class size can easily be 20-30 students. I have not heard anyone complain about not being able to fill classes. What support network are you offering to your students after the training? Once a student takes an AACFI course they have AACFI resources available.
That being said, feel free to start another thread advertising your course dates and fees. You are hijacking this one by pimping your classes in it.

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Says the pimp. :banghead:

civilwarguy said:

Interceptor_Knight,
If You had actually bothered to read jbm's post you would see that he had already done the class he offered so he wasn't advertising anything. And If you like the classes offered for $125 so much then by all means take them no one is saying not to. Everyone is free to spend or throw away (whatever you opinion of the situation may be). That being said I happen to know Jbm personally as do many on here, so if members on here choose not to take a course from someone they don't know to instead to take one from someone they know and trust don't get bent out of shape.

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You are contributing to the thread hijack. This thread's purpose IS to advertise an AACFI class. He cut and pasted his own personal class's advertisement from another thread. I was making a point. His advertising in my thread is inappropriate and a hijack. It is irrelevant whether it is a future or past class.
Please start another thread if you wish to debate the merits of cheap training vs more expensive certified training. I will point out that AACFI trainers offer an actual WI Permit to Carry course and are not using Utah training or some individual's personal training. In the past, AACFI trainers have offered Utah permit to carry along with MN permit to carry and can add WI permit to carry in a single class. There are individual training materials for the 3 seperate permits which is part of the student fees.

oak1971 said:

Says the pimp.

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Dude.... this thread is to advertise a single AACFI Certified class and not an invitation for other trainers to advertise theirs....:dude:

Interceptor_Knight said:

I hear your feedback and I support your ability to offer and it is honorable that you provide a cheap class while basically volunteering your time doing what I suppose you imagine to be a community service. There are out-of-state trainers coming in to WI by the bus loads offering $80 Utah/WI Permit to Carry classes. They offer no certification for their curriculum other than being an approved Utah trainer.
An AACFI instructor simply has to charge more as this is a business and not a volunteer organization. The AACFI training materials can easily cost the instructor $35 per student. Add on room rental, mileage and meals and the costs will go up from there. Nobody is holding a class for 1 student. Class size can easily be 20-30 students. I have not heard anyone complain about not being able to fill classes. What support network are you offering to your students after the training? Once a student takes an AACFI course they have AACFI resources available.
That being said, feel free to start another thread advertising your course dates and fees. You are hijacking this one by pimping your classes in it.

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And conceal carry courses have to do with open carry how? I know I'm guilty of posting non Open carry issues at times also.
But here would be more appropriate.
http://www.wisconsinshooters.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=18&sid=1607c2d7dbabfd58ced1f0b255d854df