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Thread: Question - Should I also conclude that the 'DF triangle' will not carryover?

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    Question - Should I also conclude that the 'DF triangle' will not carryover?

    Hello

    I found this forum yesterday, and, well, several hours quickly disappeared as I read through a multitude of threads. I spotted a guy on a dark grey/black sport bike OC'ing what appeared to be a Glock as he traveled down Hampton Blvd. in the vicinity of ODU. My reaction once I realized that he was probably not a LEO, was probably typical for gun owners. "Virginia is open carry? Cool." When I finished my errands and got home, I sat down to further educate myself about the firearms laws in VA. OCDO, and VCDL where I think the first two on the list from google. Both sites have been very informative. I have to admit that it took me a little while to get my mind to grasp that OC'ing meant open carrying. There were a few spots that I stopped to wonder why someone was spraying their gun with OC. It did make for a few interesting mental images, and probably more that a few comical facial expressions on my behalf.

    About Me:
    I first moved to VA in late May of this year, and am currently attending school at NNSY. After the school I will be stationed at NOB. I am active duty Navy, and have been 'in' just over six years, with just over 3 years left on my current obligation. Previously, I was on a SSGN out of Washington State. I grew up around firearms, but with the exception of a hunters safety course in high school, all of my formal firearm training has come from the Navy. I know that I am no expert. Actually I am not sure if I am an expert at anything except not being an expert.

    Questions:
    I can apply a little sense to the justifications for DF that I am required to know as an armed watch stander, and conclude that only one carry over and apply while carrying a weapon as a 'private citizen'. Should I also conclude that the 'DF triangle' will not carryover? Or do the definitions only need to be tweaked some before they become more correct for carrying as a private citizen?

    I hope to make it to the VCDL picnic in NN tomorrow, meet some folks and learn a lot more.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO!!! Stick around and you will learn a lot!!! First, thank you for your service. I do highly encourage you to join VCDL if you have not already done so. They are an outstanding group. You will find VA to be one of the best states when it comes to firearms freedom. This may be a dumb question but what is a "DF triangle"?
    Last edited by thebigsd; 09-10-2011 at 01:15 AM.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Welcome to OCDO!!! Stick around and you will learn a lot!!! First, thank you for your service. I do highly encourage you to join VCDL if you have not already done so. They are an outstanding group. You will find VA to be one of the best states when it comes to firearms freedom. This may be a dumb question but what is a "DF triangle"?
    Thank you.

    It's not a dumb question.

    Perhaps an over simplification of an oversimplification.
    Opportunity.
    Capability.
    Intent.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.E. View Post
    I have to admit that it took me a little while to get my mind to grasp that OC'ing meant open carrying. There were a few spots that I stopped to wonder why someone was spraying their gun with OC. It did make for a few interesting mental images, and probably more that a few comical facial expressions on my behalf.
    Let's see how long it takes you to figure out what OCDO stands for... I'm sad to say, it took me weeks (and yes, that's plural) before I finally figured it out.

    I guess it's not your fault, as a USN product, you live eat and breathe the acronym, and you did indeed use a boat-load* of them in your first post! I suspect thebigsd's question may have been more literal, and if his wasn't I'll ask, what does the phrase "DF triangle" actually stand for? DF? Defensive Firearm?

    Some of us here have military exposure, but by no means all of us. If you really want to be nice, you could go through and define all your acronyms... Virginia is a very big state, most of us are not from your area, and don't know about shipyards or navy bases, at least their acronyms.

    TFred

    * And yes, I used "boat" in honor of your prior duty station.

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred
    .... I suspect thebigsd's question may have been more literal, and if his wasn't I'll ask, what does the phrase "DF triangle" actually stand for? DF? Defensive Firearm?
    my guess, and that's all it is, would be 'deadly force'

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    I apologize, I often forget that joining the the military included learning what sometimes felt like a foreign language. I will do better in the future.

    Scouser was correct. DF triangle reffers to the deadly force triangle.

    I forget what the OC specifically stands for when referring to OC spray, but it is effectively a pepper spray.

    A SSGN is a ballistic missile submarine that has been converted over to carry a variant of the Tomahawk cruise missile.

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    I used to be down in Norfolk much more than I am now, but that's where I started OCing. I organized a couple OC lunches a year or two ago at ODU. Several people said they were interested but only 2 or 3 people would actually show. Lemme know if you wanna grab lunch or something. I think DJEEPER has been wanting to for a while. We'll both be at the picnic in Newport News this afternoon.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    I am not sure I got a chance to meet you or DJeeper at the picnic. I like the idea of a lunch meetup, but I doubt I will be able to attend until I am out of the school at the shipyard and shift over to the naval station. Once I get settled in there I would be interested in an OC lunch somewhere.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    To get back to the OP's (OP = Original Poster, since we are throwing acronyms around freely here today )
    question:

    the DF (Defensive Firearm) triangle of Opportunity. Capability. Intent. is where we non-cop/non-military folks start our OODA (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act) loop, but we must wait until we are sure that we have observed that the intent is IMMINENT. If the BG (Bad Guy) has the Opportunity (he's standing right there), the Capability (we see that he's got a gun) and know that he's got the Intent (he's said "I'm going to kill you") but that threat is not IMMINENT (the gun we see he has while he's standing right there in front of us threatening to kill us happens to be stuck in his waist and his hands are up in the air over his head being waved back and forth) then we are not privileged to use deadly force in self defense. That being the case, we ought, IMNSHO (In My Not So Humble Opinion), to be beating feet away from the BG and towards cover (something that will stop bullets as opposed to just making it hard to be seen at the moment).

    Yes, it sucks to know that the law basically (but not exactly and precisely) says we have to wait till the BG pulls his gun and has the drop on us before we can use deadly force in self defense. The above example has been tweaked and messed with enough to make any two attorneys (those who are admitted to the bar, allowed to argue the meaning of the law in a courtroom and allowed to charge and accept money or other valueable things in exchange for telling you their opinion about the law) and a judge (the guy in the robe who decides which attorney was more nearly right) have a long day of it. Us lawyers (someone who either claims to or is thought by others to know what the law says and means) just enjoy batting these scenarios around till we can agree on why we disagree.

    A quick explanation of the last paragraph I wrote would be "The water's fine; come on in!"

    stay safe.
    Last edited by skidmark; 09-10-2011 at 07:06 PM.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    We were just discussing that at breakfast....

    Suppose and what if, I'm psychic and I can read his mind and, and, and, he's going to steal my shoes that I need to walk to the Deli to eat and, and, I would starve without them. Wouldn't that put me in immediate threat of serious bodily harm or death. I can shoot him then can't I?

    Oh, one other thing about breakfast. Someone called me a smart ass and my feelings were hurt!

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    Thanks skid, that makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    SNIP
    "The water's fine; come on in!"

    /SNIP
    I get what you are saying, but doesn't the blond with large boobs usually say this just before the [insert scary creature or murderer] grabs and subsequently eats or otherwise kills her in horror movies?

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.E. View Post
    I apologize, I often forget that joining the the military included learning what sometimes felt like a foreign language. I will do better in the future.

    Scouser was correct. DF triangle reffers to the deadly force triangle.

    I forget what the OC specifically stands for when referring to OC spray, but it is effectively a pepper spray.

    A SSGN is a ballistic missile submarine that has been converted over to carry a variant of the Tomahawk cruise missile.
    oleo capsaicin more correctly (Oleoresin Capsicum)
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

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    Welcome Aboard Sailor!

    I know OCDO accepts all kinds, even swabbies, but sewer pipe sailors now??????

    Just kidding from a "wing waxer". (USAF)

    Welcome. If you are available join us on the 13th for the monthly dinner in Richmond. Just about any questions you might have can be answered here and you will find a wealth of knowledge in the members. (from others, not me)

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by va_tazdad View Post
    I know OCDO accepts all kinds, even swabbies, but sewer pipe sailors now??????

    Just kidding from a "wing waxer". (USAF)

    Welcome. If you are available join us on the 13th for the monthly dinner in Richmond. Just about any questions you might have can be answered here and you will find a wealth of knowledge in the members. (from others, not me)
    I second that invitation. The 13th is a special dinner also. Come an hour early for the parking lot social.

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    I don't believe that I have plans Tuesday night, so I'll try to be there. I read about the legal issues Skid is facing, I also hope that Tuesday night will become a celebration.

    Some of the discussion at the picnic yesterday raised a question. I am about 90% sure that I live within 1000ft of an elementary school, though I would need a rangefinder to verify that.

    If I read this correctly, then I must either have a CHP and leave my home with my hand gun concealed, or I must leave my home with the hand gun unloaded and locked in a container? Honestly, most of my travels with my handgun thus far have been to the shooting range and back, but I can say that if this is the case I have violated that requirement a few times already.

    What would be the legal description of a locking case? I have a trigger lock that 'encases' the firing mechanism. Will that work?

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.E. View Post
    Some of the discussion at the picnic yesterday raised a question. I am about 90% sure that I live within 1000ft of an elementary school, though I would need a rangefinder to verify that.
    http://www.google.com/earth/index.html has a ruler tool. IIRC it's 1000' from the property line, not the building.

    Quote Originally Posted by J.E. View Post
    If I read this correctly, then I must either have a CHP and leave my home with my hand gun concealed, or I must leave my home with the hand gun unloaded and locked in a container?
    You must have a CHP issued to you. There is no requirement that you carry concealed, and there is no requirement that you posses your CHP if you are OCing.

    user would be the one to ask about the locked container
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Here's a Google Maps mashup that has a straight-line distance calculator. No need to download and install Google Earth.

    The law does specify that they count from the outer limits of the school's property line. Some jurisdictions have loaded their lot lines into the Google Maps database, but not all. Sometimes you can tell by looking at the Satellite view, if the property lines are not shown. And remember of course, Google Maps does not provide information worthy of legal scrutiny, just more of an FYI sort of thing.

    TFred

    http://www.daftlogic.com/projects-go...calculator.htm

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    Well, according to the link posted by TFred, the side of my building furthest from the school is only about 450 ft from the corner of the property containing the school. Some things are good to know before they become an incident.

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