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Thread: Sorry but I've gotta ask a couple CC related questions.

  1. #1
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    Question Sorry but I've gotta ask a couple CC related questions.

    I know, this is the OC site. I don't have anywhere else to ask these things. Finally got my CPL here in Saginaw. Don't even get me started on how ridiculous the "we will give you further consideration" letter and interview was. Anyway...

    1. Carrying in the car. Can my gun be laying on the seat or does it need to actually be fairly concealed?

    2. If I'm on my own private land outside or in house, CC, and cop/dnr/law guy walks up do I have to inform?

    3. Answer the door to a cop at my apartment while CC? Different then 2 because it's not my private land.

    4. I'm out for a walk around town, CC, and a cop pulls up or walks up ordering me to stop. They just got a report of vandalism right by here and he suspects me. Immediately inform?

    5. I'm walking down the street, CC, and a cop either walks up or pulls up next to me to ask if I've seen such and such a car go by that they've gotten complaints about. Clearly not thinking I'm involved in anything. Inform?

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    Quote Originally Posted by qqq1 View Post
    I know, this is the OC site. I don't have anywhere else to ask these things. Finally got my CPL here in Saginaw. Don't even get me started on how ridiculous the "we will give you further consideration" letter and interview was. Anyway...

    1. Carrying in the car. Can my gun be laying on the seat or does it need to actually be fairly concealed?

    2. If I'm on my own private land outside or in house, CC, and cop/dnr/law guy walks up do I have to inform?

    3. Answer the door to a cop at my apartment while CC? Different then 2 because it's not my private land.

    4. I'm out for a walk around town, CC, and a cop pulls up or walks up ordering me to stop. They just got a report of vandalism right by here and he suspects me. Immediately inform?

    5. I'm walking down the street, CC, and a cop either walks up or pulls up next to me to ask if I've seen such and such a car go by that they've gotten complaints about. Clearly not thinking I'm involved in anything. Inform?

    1. With a CPL you can have it anywhere in the vehicle.
    2. Technically no, on your own private property there is no need for a CPL to CC so there is no need to disclose.
    3. I don't believe so as it's your place of residence. See #2, others may disagree.
    4. Since you are carrying under the authority of a CPL and are being stopped or detained, Yes.
    5. No, you are not being stopped or detained.

  3. #3
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    ^ correct on all points.

    In the car, I recommend keeping it where it will stay where you put it in the event of a crash. I use a retention holster mounted to the car. You can keep it how you wish.

  4. #4
    Regular Member TheSzerdi's Avatar
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    By obtaining a CPL you agree to the disclosure rules, which means that even on your own property you must disclose if you are stopped/detained.

    Best policy is to disclose every time. Proving in court that you weren't stopped/detained can be an expensive hassle.

    (The above does not apply to OC unless you're CC'ing a bug. IANAL. My opinion is worth what you paid.)

  5. #5
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by budlight View Post
    1. With a CPL you can have it anywhere in the vehicle.
    Agree

    2. Technically no, on your own private property there is no need for a CPL to CC so there is no need to disclose.
    Agree. However, just open carry on your own property and take the question out of it.

    3. I don't believe so as it's your place of residence. See #2, others may disagree.
    Correct. You have leased that property for a time specified on the lease. That property is legally yours for the duration.

    4. Since you are carrying under the authority of a CPL and are being stopped or detained, Yes.
    Agree. I like to ask the officer if the stop is formal or just casual. If its formal, then inform, if its casual, ask if you are being detained. If not, bid him/her a good day and be on your way.

    5. No, you are not being stopped or detained.
    Agree.
    Last edited by Tucker6900; 09-10-2011 at 11:22 AM.

  6. #6
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    Thanks for the quick answers. Don't worry, I'll be doing my part to show OC is normal and acceptable as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    In the car, I recommend keeping it where it will stay where you put it in the event of a crash. I use a retention holster mounted to the car. You can keep it how you wish.
    I plan on rigging a holster by my right leg, on the side of the radio/air control column thing.
    Last edited by qqq1; 09-10-2011 at 11:59 AM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Here is what the disclosure law says:
    28.425f Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to police officer; violation; penalty; seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.
    Sec. 5f. (1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.
    (2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:
    (a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol. (b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card. (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol
    and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
    (4) An individual who violates subsection (1) or (2) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $100.00.
    (5) An individual who violates subsection (3) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined as follows:
    (a) For a first offense, by a fine of not more than $500.00 or by the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol being suspended for 6 months, or both.
    (b) For a subsequent offense within 3 years of a prior offense, by a fine of not more than $1,000.00 and by the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol being revoked.
    (6) If an individual is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this section, the court shall notify the department of state police and the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the license of that determination.
    (7) A pistol carried in violation of this section is subject to immediate seizure by a peace officer. If a peace
    Page 24
    FIREARMS LAWS OF MICHIGAN — 2011
    officer seizes a pistol under this subsection, the individual has 45 days in which to display his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer. If the individual displays his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer within the 45-day period, the authorized employee of that law enforcement entity shall return the pistol to the individual unless the individual is prohibited by law from possessing a firearm. If the individual does not display his or her license or documentation within the 45-day period, the pistol is subject to forfeiture as provided in section 5g. A pistol is not subject to immediate seizure under this subsection if both of the following circumstances exist:
    (a) The individual has his or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card in his or her possession when the violation occurs.
    (b) The peace officer verifies through the law enforcement information network that the individual is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol.
    (8) As used in this section, "peace officer" includes a motor carrier officer appointed under section 6d of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6d, and security personnel employed by the state under section 6c of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6c.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by qqq1 View Post



    I plan on rigging a holster by my right leg, on the side of the radio/air control column thing.
    Thats where I keep mine.

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    With regard to #1, it can be anywhere as long as it's not brandishing (you waving it around in a threatening manner). I keep mine in a pocket holster wedged between my seat and my center console.

  10. #10
    Regular Member G22's Avatar
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    Every single one of your questions should have been covered in your CPL class.

    Just what in the heck are these instructors teaching people these days? I see questions like this more and more at MGO and it's really getting a bit out of hand.

    Someone like qqq1 is gonna get jammed up royally because of these extremely poor instructors.



    Good on you qqq1 for asking though. If you have any other questions at all, just ask away. The folks here are plenty knowledgeable and willing to help.

  11. #11
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    We've seen some pretty incredible crap come out of some CPL classes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    Agree


    Agree. However, just open carry on your own property and take the question out of it.


    Correct. You have leased that property for a time specified on the lease. That property is legally yours for the duration.


    Agree.
    To expand on this a hotel room is also your residence assuming you have paid money for it so you can CC in a hotel room without a CPL and other rights that apply to your home also apply to a hotel room.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    We've seen some pretty incredible crap come out of some CPL classes.
    Agreed…..my instructor made it very clear that if your holstered firearm became exposed (other then an accident like bending over) you were brandishing and subject to a felony. He was a retired detective who “knew the law.”

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by budlight View Post
    Agreed…..my instructor made it very clear that if your holstered firearm became exposed (other then an accident like bending over) you were brandishing and subject to a felony. He was a retired detective who “knew the law.”
    Brandishing isn't even a felony but I'm not a cop so I'm sure he's correct.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  15. #15
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Makes me want to take a day out of every week to just go sit in on CPL classes and correct these idiots.

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    while my CPL class instructor was a personable guy, he was pretty anti OC.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElectricianLU58 View Post
    while my CPL class instructor was a personable guy, he was pretty anti OC.
    In my opinion many are, especially those who have been teaching the classes for quite some time.

    Over the years, I honestly believed, for them to introduce laws/restrictions pertaining to OC, they were thinking it would be cutting their own throats. In reality, addressing OC in their classes, or elsewhere, is actually advertisement for their classes when folks realize there's less restrictions for OC with a CPL.

  18. #18
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXDacp View Post
    In reality, addressing OC in their classes, or elsewhere, is actually advertisement for their classes when folks realize there's less restrictions for OC with a CPL.
    ...unless you live in Ingham County then you have to risk dealing with Aqualina who says OC in a sports stadium with s CPL creates an "absurd" legal situation -- and will convict you. See People v Wilkins.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  19. #19
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    any chance of the state allowing for non NRA classes?

  20. #20
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElectricianLU58 View Post
    any chance of the state allowing for non NRA classes?
    Do they have to be NRA? I thought they just had to meet the state requirements in the statute of which the NRA course provides. I'm not sure it has to be NRA courses. Someone will know.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  21. #21
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    My certificate says NRA all over it. I guess I just ASSumed thats how it was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Thats where I keep mine.
    Can you show me a pic? Info on how you did it?

    My class seemed to be fairly good, but it is of course the only class I've taken. I guess all I can really say for sure is the instructors were nice and may the day long class fun. Information about each of my q's was mentioned and I did ask a few quick questions but these were just some specific things that I've recently thought of. There was no talk of OC other then when they said saginaw county people have to meet with the gun board and they may ask you a quick question like "where are the places you cant carry?", and I said "can I start arguing with them about OC in those places?". I can understand why instructors don't want to cover OC it as many people get harassed/detained by leo when following OC law to the letter.

    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    My certificate says NRA all over it. I guess I just ASSumed thats how it was.
    Mine says something about NRA home protection certified. Is that what they all are? And if that's the right class I don't see why they would need to even talk about CC... since it's a class about in home protection.
    Last edited by qqq1; 09-11-2011 at 07:25 PM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Do they have to be NRA? I thought they just had to meet the state requirements in the statute of which the NRA course provides. I'm not sure it has to be NRA courses. Someone will know.
    Per 28.425j:
    (d) The instructor of the course is certified by this state or a national organization to teach the 8-hour pistol safety training course described in this section.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by qqq1 View Post
    Can you show me a pic? Info on how you did it?
    On the ebrake: I split and bent a pipe to fit the ebrake handle, then welded a plate to it with the mounting holes lined up to the screw holes in the serpa.

    Between the seats: I got a flat bar, bolted it to an old seatbelt mount, and welded a mounting plate similarly as above.




  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by budlight View Post
    Agreed…..my instructor made it very clear that if your holstered firearm became exposed (other then an accident like bending over) you were brandishing and subject to a felony. He was a retired detective who “knew the law.”
    What the XXXX? Isn't MI an OC state???? http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/da...0s/op10176.htm

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