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  1. #1
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    2 questions

    Ok, everybody. I took the class today to apply for my handgun permit next week. During this class, two questions came up that I thought I would see if anybody here could answer:

    1. The instructor said a person has to be 21 to OWN a handgun in Tennessee. Is this true? I know a person has to be 21 to PURCHASE a handgun or handgun ammunition from a licensed seller. But, I thought a person could own one at 18 (if it is a private sale, gift, or inheritance).

    2. The gun I used to qualify was a .22cal lr Ruger 22/45 Mark III Hunter, target model. During the 50-round live fire test, I had three malfunctions. One was a round that did not fire at all the first two times I tried to fire it, and the other two were stovepipe jams. When I had taken it to the range a few months earlier, I shot around 200-250 rounds and had about 6-10 stovepipe malfunctions. Is this level of malfunctioning normal? If not, how do I fix them? For those who might ask, the ammunition that I used was from a box of Federal Ammunition, 36 grain, 1260fps, .22lr, 550 round value pack.

    Any help here would be appreciated.

    P.S. Before anybody mentions it, NO, I don't plan to use a .22 cal handgun as my carry weapon. I used it just for passing the shooting test. My carry weapon will probably be a Glock 26 or 27, depending on the recoil.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascar24Glock View Post
    Ok, everybody. I took the class today to apply for my handgun permit next week. During this class, two questions came up that I thought I would see if anybody here could answer:

    1. The instructor said a person has to be 21 to OWN a handgun in Tennessee. Is this true? I know a person has to be 21 to PURCHASE a handgun or handgun ammunition from a licensed seller. But, I thought a person could own one at 18 (if it is a private sale, gift, or inheritance).

    P.S. Before anybody mentions it, NO, I don't plan to use a .22 cal handgun as my carry weapon. I used it just for passing the shooting test. My carry weapon will probably be a Glock 26 or 27, depending on the recoil.
    I don't think anyone here would have thought you would use the .22 as a carry weapon. But heck, there's a time and place for everything, and sometimes a .22 is what you want. They can be deadly.

    But to your first question. A person has to be at least 21 to purchase a handgun from an FFL dealer. Most handgun ammunition sellers (including Walmart) won't sell to you unless you are at least 21. However you only need to be 18 to own a handgun. This can be accomplished through a private sale or received as a gift, such as my daughter. She turns 18 in a few weeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OngoingFreedom View Post
    ... A person has to be at least 21 to purchase a handgun from an FFL dealer. Most handgun ammunition sellers (including Walmart) won't sell to you unless you are at least 21. However you only need to be 18 to own a handgun. This can be accomplished through a private sale or received as a gift, such as my daughter. She turns 18 in a few weeks.
    Correct about being 21 to buy from FFL. (federal law)
    Also right about being 18 to purchase a gun in private sale. (TN Law)

    However, also TN law, a handgun or long gun may be "loaned or given to a minor for the purposes of hunting, trapping, fishing, camping, sport shooting or any other lawful sporting activity". So you don't have to be 18 to actually own a gun.

    Walmart will sell you "rifle ammo" at 18, but "handgun ammo" at 21, that's why they (usually) ask what it's for and/or ask for ID. Yes, the definition of each is gray and YMMV trying at 18 to buy .357 mag/.38 Special for a Marlin 1894 or 9mm for a Hi-Point Carbine or Camp 9. This is also federal law.

    - OS
    Last edited by Oh Shoot; 09-11-2011 at 12:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oh Shoot View Post
    Correct about being 21 to buy from FFL. (federal law)
    Also right about being 18 to purchase a gun in private sale. (TN Law)

    However, also TN law, a handgun or long gun may be "loaned or given to a minor for the purposes of hunting, trapping, fishing, camping, sport shooting or any other lawful sporting activity". So you don't have to be 18 to actually own a gun.

    Walmart will sell you "rifle ammo" at 18, but "handgun ammo" at 21, that's why they (usually) ask what it's for and/or ask for ID. Yes, the definition of each is gray and YMMV trying at 18 to buy .357 mag/.38 Special for a Marlin 1894 or 9mm for a Hi-Point Carbine or Camp 9. This is also federal law.

    - OS
    That's what I thought. Thanks for confirming it.

    As for my second question, what would be causing that many stovepipe jams? Bad extractor? Undercharged/cheap ammo? Limp wrist?

    Like I said, I won't be using it as my carry weapon (even if the caliber were acceptable, the gun is about 10.75" long from front to back anyway; it's pretty hard to conceal something that long). But, I will probably use it a lot for range practice since .22 LR ammo is pretty cheap. In doing so, I'd like to cut down on the number of jams I have to clear.
    "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascar24Glock View Post
    ....

    As for my second question, what would be causing that many stovepipe jams? Bad extractor? Undercharged/cheap ammo? Limp wrist?....
    When a Ruger Mark II/III, 22/45, or 10/22 starts stovepiping all of a sudden (if mag and ammo probs are ruled out) extractor is always a prime suspect. Many old hands put in a Volquartsen extractor right off the bat (I did in both of my 10/22's); all kinds of "failure to feed" and "stovepipe" probs are actually failure to extract probs.

    Actually, it's not failure to actually extract, as the shell will come out of chamber with no extractor in there at all just from blowback, but the extractor holds the shell in correct position on way back to be kicked out properly by ejector.

    The Volquartsen extractor is like a $10 part, so it's not an expensive try.

    The Federal ammo you're shooting should be fine. I have shot tons of it in my 10/22s and couple friends have done same in their MarkIII and 22/45 respectively; it gets used a lot because WallyWorld generally carries it. I have found only Remington Golden Bullet to be the consistently dud/under-loaded bulk .22 over the last few years, among the main brands. But just like making sure you don't have a sticky mag, you should rule out that you didn't get a bad batch of ammo also.

    You can read up a little and ask at rimfirecentral.com, the home for all things Ruger rimfire.

    - OS
    Last edited by Oh Shoot; 09-11-2011 at 01:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oh Shoot View Post
    When a Ruger Mark II/III, 22/45, or 10/22 starts stovepiping all of a sudden (if mag and ammo probs are ruled out) extractor is always a prime suspect. Many old hands put in a Volquartsen extractor right off the bat (I did in both of my 10/22's); all kinds of "failure to feed" and "stovepipe" probs are actually failure to extract probs.

    Actually, it's not failure to actually extract, as the shell will come out of chamber with no extractor in there at all just from blowback, but the extractor holds the shell in correct position on way back to be kicked out properly by ejector.

    The Volquartsen extractor is like a $10 part, so it's not an expensive try.

    The Federal ammo you're shooting should be fine. I have shot tons of it in my 10/22s and couple friends have done same in their MarkIII and 22/45 respectively; it gets used a lot because WallyWorld generally carries it. I have found only Remington Golden Bullet to be the consistently dud/under-loaded bulk .22 over the last few years, among the main brands. But just like making sure you don't have a sticky mag, you should rule out that you didn't get a bad batch of ammo also.

    You can read up a little and ask at rimfirecentral.com, the home for all things Ruger rimfire.

    - OS
    Thanks. I'll look into that website.

    One other thing I should note is that it didn't start doing it "all of a sudden." It's been doing it from day one. I got it as a present for Christmas last year, and it's been used a total of three times: once by me on the firing range, and twice for permit classes (once for myself and once for another person I let borrow it for the class). When I used it on the firing range, it stovepiped about 6-10 times (out of around 200-250 rounds fired). When that other person used it, it stovepiped once in 50 rounds. When I used it, I had 2 stovepipes out of 50 rounds. In addition, one round did not fire correctly (the firing pin hit the rim, but the round did not fire; and I had to manually load the bullet so that the firing pin would hit in a different spot).

    I should note that I have used the same box of ammo since I got it. What other types should I try (obviously, you said Remington Golden Bullet is a no go) to absolutely rule out ammo problems/bad batch?
    "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty."
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    For your .22 problem , try using CCI mini mag .22LR shells . Also , just to cover things , did you tear the gun down and give it a good cleaning ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jayspapa View Post
    For your .22 problem , try using CCI mini mag .22LR shells . Also , just to cover things , did you tear the gun down and give it a good cleaning ?
    Yeah, the CCI is sort of the "standard". If it won't feed that, it's probably not ammo related period. Too expensive for me to shoot regularly though.

    As far as bulk ammo, I've settled in on the Blazer 40 gr. lead nose for the last year or so. I've probably shot 5,000 rounds of it, in a couple of 10/22's, Beretta NEOs, old Remmie Fieldmaster, and cheapo Plinkster bolt. Consistent loads, very very rare dud or fffttt from underload.

    A friend has highly modified 10/22 with tight throat target barrel, and its the only bulk he can find that runs well in it. He also has a nice tack driving Savage bolt, and finds the accuracy right up there fairly close to expensive Eley and whatnot.

    - OS
    Last edited by Oh Shoot; 09-11-2011 at 04:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascar24Glock View Post
    Ok, everybody. I took the class today to apply for my handgun permit next week. During this class, two questions came up that I thought I would see if anybody here could answer:

    1. The instructor said a person has to be 21 to OWN a handgun in Tennessee. Is this true? I know a person has to be 21 to PURCHASE a handgun or handgun ammunition from a licensed seller. But, I thought a person could own one at 18 (if it is a private sale, gift, or inheritance).
    Due to the weirdness of Tennessee's preemption statutes, it COULD be illegal for someone under 21 to be in possession of a handgun if Knoxville (or other municipality) has an ordinance preventing such that was grandfathered in. Double check the ordinances and dates enacted.

    I really wish we'd get enough state legislatures to remove that grandfathering provision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WCrawford View Post
    Due to the weirdness of Tennessee's preemption statutes, it COULD be illegal for someone under 21 to be in possession of a handgun if Knoxville (or other municipality) has an ordinance preventing such that was grandfathered in. Double check the ordinances and dates enacted.

    I really wish we'd get enough state legislatures to remove that grandfathering provision.
    According to Knoxville City Code, it's illegal for ANYone to carry a firearm, "except an Army or Navy pistol carried in the hand".

    Same Jim Crow law that Kwik got changed in Bell Meade. Various burgs all over TN have that same exact worded ordinance. Not enforced of course.

    Knoxville is also, AFAIK, the only municipality in the state which did not opt out of the park carry statute, but relies on pre-1986 ordinance to prevent carry in city parks, and hence bans carry without having to post. Like anyone from out of town would know that. Doubt if half the HCP holders IN town know that.

    - OS
    Last edited by Oh Shoot; 09-14-2011 at 12:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oh Shoot View Post
    According to Knoxville City Code, it's illegal for ANYone to carry a firearm, "except an Army or Navy pistol carried in the hand".

    Same Jim Crow law that Kwik got changed in Bell Meade. Various burgs all over TN have that same exact worded ordinance. Not enforced of course.

    Knoxville is also, AFAIK, the only municipality in the state which did not opt out of the park carry statute, but relies on pre-1986 ordinance to prevent carry in city parks, and hence bans carry without having to post. Like anyone from out of town would know that. Doubt if half the HCP holders IN town know that.

    - OS
    Nashville still has the Army/Navy ordinance on the books, but there is a separate ordinance preventing those under 21 from owning or possessing a handgun.

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    Who was your instructor? I live in Johnson City as well, and know of two places that give the classes with Ruger .22s. I might know them and be able to correct them lol

    As to your question about the failures, QC on .22 LR ammo is notoriously...poor. Due to the unique way that the primer material is inserted into the rim, misfires are relatively common with low quality .22 rounds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oh Shoot View Post
    According to Knoxville City Code, it's illegal for ANYone to carry a firearm, "except an Army or Navy pistol carried in the hand".

    Same Jim Crow law that Kwik got changed in Bell Meade. Various burgs all over TN have that same exact worded ordinance. Not enforced of course.

    Knoxville is also, AFAIK, the only municipality in the state which did not opt out of the park carry statute, but relies on pre-1986 ordinance to prevent carry in city parks, and hence bans carry without having to post. Like anyone from out of town would know that. Doubt if half the HCP holders IN town know that.

    - OS
    I didn't know that...but I only live in Knoxville for a year.

    Also...*bump*
    Last edited by SovereignAxe; 12-11-2011 at 02:16 PM.
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    IMHO, permit courses should not allow 22lr pistols for the shooting part of the class. 1) It is a disservice to the student. They are not getting training with their carry firearm. 2) This might be the only time any "stress," or "pressure," is put on the student, and would better mentally prepare them, should they actually need to use their firearm. The "stress/ pressure" being to pass the course to get their permit.

    (I used my .45. It was fun to see the others surprise when I shot. They were all pinging along with their 22's, and were not expecting the loud report of my .45... )

    Sorry for taking the thread off topic.

    Yes, the 22lr is notorious for poor quality control. I would change the ammo to see if it is the culprit. Since the extractor recommendation is so inexpensive, yeah, I would probably do that too.
    Last edited by HvyMtl; 12-20-2011 at 04:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HvyMtl View Post
    IMHO, permit courses should not allow 22lr pistols for the shooting part of the class. 1) It is a disservice to the student. They are not getting training with their carry firearm. 2) This might be the only time any "stress," or "pressure," is put on the student, and would better mentally prepare them, should they actually need to use their firearm. The "stress/ pressure" being to pass the course to get their permit.

    (I used my .45. It was fun to see the others surprise when I shot. They were all pinging along with their 22's, and were not expecting the loud report of my .45... )

    Sorry for taking the thread off topic.

    Yes, the 22lr is notorious for poor quality control. I would change the ammo to see if it is the culprit. Since the extractor recommendation is so in expensive, yeah, I would probably do that too.
    What if you don't own your carry weapon yet?

    For many people taking permit classes, it's their first time shooting a gun. Does it really make sense to have a 9mm be the first gun EVERYONE shoots? .380? .45? These rounds don't work for everybody, so starting someone out with these rounds doesn't make sense either. Also, many organizations that put on these classes can't afford to provide everyone with 50 rounds of anything more than .22 (it didn't at the club I went to, which is a non-profit club), and passing the cost on to the participant would almost double the cost of the class, decreasing its popularity.

    .22 LR is the perfect round for the new shooter because it introduces them to a semi-auto weapon cheaply, without inducing a bad habit like a flinch, like a more powerful round would. Also, the Ruger Mk series is one of the most popular .22 pistols, not to mention reasonably cheap, so just about everyone has them, and any organization that needs another one can easily afford one.

    A permit class is simply there to familiarize someone with a pistol as mandated by the state, and for those that are familiar, to make sure they are proficient enough to handle it. Training with your carry weapon is something you should do on your own time. That's how it's done in constitutional carry states, and it shouldn't be any different for Tennesseeans.
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    Regular Member HvyMtl's Avatar
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    No offense, Axe, but I disagree.

    Well, if you are going to carry, why delay the purchase until after the class? Makes me wonder why, are you unsure of carrying?

    Why have a round primarily used for target practice, instead of defense? How does that prepare you? IMHO, not well.

    "A permit class is simply there to familiarize someone with a pistol as mandated by the state..." That is not its purpose. Its purpose is to educate the future permit holder. The course is not designed to be introductory, though it is dumbed down. It is designed to ensure you know your responsibility as a permit holder, and ensures you have some level of competence to shoot. It is not a "hello gun" class. Using it as such is a poor choice, as the instructors now have to educate you more on the things you should already know, like safety, handling, loading, aiming, etc. If you want an introduction course, they are available, and should have been taken long before getting a permit.

    Ammo cost is irrelevant. I brought my own. Anyone who wants to get the permit will either pay extra for the ammo, or bring their own.

    The 22lr may very well be the perfect introductory round for the newly interested in firearms, and great for practice, and improving your trigger skills. However, again, as you said,"Training with your carry weapon is something you should do on your own time." Absolutely, it should, that is why 22lr should not be used. It is better for practice, unless you intend to carry 22lr. And, again, using the permit course as initial training is not what it is there for...

    My point is still valid: Name another time you will get that puts outside stress on you, where you are not in danger, but could fail your course? I used the class to better my focus. Most every time I shoot, I hope to improve my skills, so, heaven forbid, if I have to call on them, I know what the heck I am doing.

    Besides, I did not appreciate the delay, waiting for many people who did not know which end was the one that went "boom," while taking the course. Waiting around for a few more hours in a gun shop was fun, but it was impolite delay to the others there by not being prepared.

    So, I still say using 22lr, or not using your own handgun, or not being beyond introductory gun knowledge level, is not the way to go through the permit class. I wish more people would do their homework before showing up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HvyMtl View Post
    No offense, Axe, but I disagree.

    Well, if you are going to carry, why delay the purchase until after the class? Makes me wonder why, are you unsure of carrying?

    Why have a round primarily used for target practice, instead of defense? How does that prepare you? IMHO, not well.

    "A permit class is simply there to familiarize someone with a pistol as mandated by the state..." That is not its purpose. Its purpose is to educate the future permit holder. The course is not designed to be introductory, though it is dumbed down. It is designed to ensure you know your responsibility as a permit holder, and ensures you have some level of competence to shoot. It is not a "hello gun" class. Using it as such is a poor choice, as the instructors now have to educate you more on the things you should already know, like safety, handling, loading, aiming, etc. If you want an introduction course, they are available, and should have been taken long before getting a permit.

    Ammo cost is irrelevant. I brought my own. Anyone who wants to get the permit will either pay extra for the ammo, or bring their own.

    The 22lr may very well be the perfect introductory round for the newly interested in firearms, and great for practice, and improving your trigger skills. However, again, as you said,"Training with your carry weapon is something you should do on your own time." Absolutely, it should, that is why 22lr should not be used. It is better for practice, unless you intend to carry 22lr. And, again, using the permit course as initial training is not what it is there for...

    My point is still valid: Name another time you will get that puts outside stress on you, where you are not in danger, but could fail your course? I used the class to better my focus. Most every time I shoot, I hope to improve my skills, so, heaven forbid, if I have to call on them, I know what the heck I am doing.

    Besides, I did not appreciate the delay, waiting for many people who did not know which end was the one that went "boom," while taking the course. Waiting around for a few more hours in a gun shop was fun, but it was impolite delay to the others there by not being prepared.

    So, I still say using 22lr, or not using your own handgun, or not being beyond introductory gun knowledge level, is not the way to go through the permit class. I wish more people would do their homework before showing up.
    I guess that's where there's the disconnect. At my class I was just having a good time making one big hole out of the bullseye. I didn't start getting nervous about how well I was shooting until I was told I might end up being the best shooter in the class. After that I finally got nervous and threw a shot or two high and left. I ended up being second best :/

    Unless the requirement for the class has a time limit or puts me 50 yards away from the target, I'm not going to get very nervous about it. But for those that are new to shooting, that's impractical because they wont hit anything. That why I advocate practicing on your own or taking an SD class or getting into some sort of competitive match. Having the state put more requirements on getting a permit isn't what we're really fighting for, is it? I'm not saying we need to set the standard low, but IMO it shouldn't be a requirement set forth by the state to excercise a right we should already have.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HvyMtl View Post
    IMHO, permit courses should not allow 22lr pistols for the shooting part of the class. 1) It is a disservice to the student. They are not getting training with their carry firearm. 2) This might be the only time any "stress," or "pressure," is put on the student, and would better mentally prepare them, should they actually need to use their firearm. The "stress/ pressure" being to pass the course to get their permit.

    (I used my .45. It was fun to see the others surprise when I shot. They were all pinging along with their 22's, and were not expecting the loud report of my .45... )

    Sorry for taking the thread off topic.

    Yes, the 22lr is notorious for poor quality control. I would change the ammo to see if it is the culprit. Since the extractor recommendation is so inexpensive, yeah, I would probably do that too.
    Just curious, I had a couple of questions about ramifications of your proposed ".22 LR ban" for the shooting test:
    1. Does your ban include people who actually do plan to carry .22 LR as their carry weapon (not a good choice, I admit, but to each his own)?
    2. Does it include .22 magnum (which is what someone I know sometimes carries)?

    Different subject, what's a good hollowpoint ammunition brand/type that tends to work well in a Glock 27 Gen4?
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    I used a 22 to qualify with. Instructer said no reloads and that was all I had. When we got ready to shoot he changed his mind and said we could use reloads. I just used the High Standard Supermatic.

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