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Thread: OT: First Ammendment being trampled in Michigan - SB 637

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    OT: First Ammendment being trampled in Michigan - SB 637

    PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE (Kahn) Mandates public school students to recite the "Pledge of Allegiance"

    This bill would require all public schools to REQUIRE (presumably under the threat of disciplinary action) each student in said school to say the pledge of allegiance each day.

    If this passes and my step-son decides not to say the pledge AND gets in trouble for it, I've got his back.



    How appalling! I thought this was settled case law as being against the first amendment! It violates the First Ammendment which is brought upon the States via the 14th.

    I, for one (popular or not) do not always say the pledge, because I will not pledge my support to the current (nor under GW Bush) regime.

    I should add: I'm not opposed to requiring the school teachers to lead (or attempt to lead) the class in the pledge of allegiance. I AM against punishing lil Jimmy because he chose not to participate.
    Last edited by TheQ; 09-13-2011 at 01:40 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    +1 to everything you said

    it looks like the bill sponsors are republicans too. another reason i'm glad i'm not one of them.
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 09-13-2011 at 01:48 PM.
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    ,Is it the "under God" version, or the emasculated censored , politically "correct", version?
    Last edited by stainless1911; 09-13-2011 at 03:59 PM.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    ,Is it the "under God" version, or the emasculated censored , politically "correct", version?
    Does it matter? You're forcing someone -- a kid -- to pledge something that they may not want to pledge to. It's a personal decision, isn't it?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

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    They shouldnt be forced, either way, but what rights are used to refute or defend this (inevitable) case,. will be important to the discussion.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    They shouldnt be forced, either way, but what rights are used to refute or defend this (inevitable) case,. will be important to the discussion.
    Not really. It's settled precedent from SCOTUS! Thanks Jehovah Witness!
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

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    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    You are not pledging allegiance to the government, Bush, Obama, Nixon or any of the other series of crooks who have held that office.

    You are pledging allegiance to the flag and to the republic, the basic idea of our nation, for which it stands.

    It is, of course, your right not to say it and I find it appalling that some politicians would force children to say it under threat of punishment.

    Yes, the case law has been established that it is a violation of rights guaranteed by the First Amendment to force the Pledge.

    All of that said, I have absolutely no respect for the cult behind the case law.

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Does it matter? You're forcing someone -- a kid -- to pledge something that they may not want to pledge to. It's a personal decision, isn't it?
    Preach on. I say that every day.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    You are not pledging allegiance to the government, Bush, Obama, Nixon or any of the other series of crooks who have held that office.

    You are pledging allegiance to the flag and to the republic, the basic idea of our nation, for which it stands.

    It is, of course, your right not to say it and I find it appalling that some politicians would force children to say it under threat of punishment.

    Yes, the case law has been established that it is a violation of rights guaranteed by the First Amendment to force the Pledge.

    All of that said, I have absolutely no respect for the cult behind the case law.
    Sergeant First Class Retired. I respect that you did as our leaders ask you and thank you for your service -- even though I may not have agreed with your mission -- whatever it was.

    "and to the Republic for which it stands"...

    ...I do not support our current degenerated republic how it stands. It's not the Republic I would choose. The Republic I would choose would be one that:

    * Understands to regulate drugs (ie: Alchohol), we'd have to amend the Constitution (like we did with XVIII) since that power is not granted to the Federal Government.
    * Understands the RKBA shall not be infringed -- at all -- until we repeal or modify the second amendment. My understanding of this is: if I want to make or purchase a nuke and keep it in my back yard, I can. (that action would be a bit extreme, granted)
    * Understands the Federal Government has no power to prevent me from buying and consuming raw milk.
    * Understands the FBI can't just come in my house whenever they think just have a "hunch" I am a terrorist without consulting the courts.
    * Understands that before I get shipped out of the Country and locked up I have the right to a trial an my day in court.
    * Underrstands the Federal Government has no Constitutional Authority to take my money, by force, and "redistribute" it to anyone else -- corporate welfare, individual welfare, the "progressive" income tax that a fair amount of people don't pay into at all but somehow manage to get a refund!

    ...this is just part of the list. When we get back to our Constitutional Republic I'll gladly say the pledge.

    Until then, I'll withhold saying it when I see fit and you and I will just have to disagree and be civil -- or you can call me an unpatriotic ***** and I'll tell you that you don't truly understand what the thing we call "Liberty", that you fought for, means.

    Your move, my fellow patriot.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Until then, I'll withhold saying it when I see fit and you and I will just have to disagree and be civil -- or you can call me an unpatriotic ***** and I'll tell you that you don't truly understand what the thing we call "Liberty", that you fought for, means.
    Interesting -- the language block. So can I ***** my finger as long as I don't finger my pr*ck?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE (Kahn) Mandates public school students to recite the "Pledge of Allegiance"

    This bill would require all public schools to REQUIRE (presumably under the threat of disciplinary action) each student in said school to say the pledge of allegiance each day.

    If this passes and my step-son decides not to say the pledge AND gets in trouble for it, I've got his back.



    How appalling! I thought this was settled case law as being against the first amendment! It violates the First Ammendment which is brought upon the States via the 14th.

    I, for one (popular or not) do not always say the pledge, because I will not pledge my support to the current (nor under GW Bush) regime.

    I should add: I'm not opposed to requiring the school teachers to lead (or attempt to lead) the class in the pledge of allegiance. I AM against punishing lil Jimmy because he chose not to participate.
    I agree with you.... however, this should be in the general discussion area. John and Mike have this rule because if they didn't everyone would clog up other forums with other issues from everything from dog abuse to space exploration.

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    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    I think I am going to leave this one here. It is a civil rights issue based upon a Michigan specific law so perhaps the Michigan forum is the best place to leave this discussion.


    John

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    I was raised back when you said, or at least stood & put your hand on your heart, for your daily pledge.
    That being said, no one should be punished for not saying your pledge period,
    but at the same time if you chose not to pledge you should just stand their without making any disruptions (protesting etc..) as some knot heads will do to assert their displeasure to the class .

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    I wouldnt say it either.

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Sergeant First Class Retired. I respect that you did as our leaders ask you and thank you for your service -- even though I may not have agreed with your mission -- whatever it was.

    "and to the Republic for which it stands"...

    ...I do not support our current degenerated republic how it stands. It's not the Republic I would choose. The Republic I would choose would be one that:

    * Understands to regulate drugs (ie: Alchohol), we'd have to amend the Constitution (like we did with XVIII) since that power is not granted to the Federal Government.
    * Understands the RKBA shall not be infringed -- at all -- until we repeal or modify the second amendment. My understanding of this is: if I want to make or purchase a nuke and keep it in my back yard, I can. (that action would be a bit extreme, granted)
    * Understands the Federal Government has no power to prevent me from buying and consuming raw milk.
    * Understands the FBI can't just come in my house whenever they think just have a "hunch" I am a terrorist without consulting the courts.
    * Understands that before I get shipped out of the Country and locked up I have the right to a trial an my day in court.
    * Underrstands the Federal Government has no Constitutional Authority to take my money, by force, and "redistribute" it to anyone else -- corporate welfare, individual welfare, the "progressive" income tax that a fair amount of people don't pay into at all but somehow manage to get a refund!

    ...this is just part of the list. When we get back to our Constitutional Republic I'll gladly say the pledge.

    Until then, I'll withhold saying it when I see fit and you and I will just have to disagree and be civil -- or you can call me an unpatriotic ***** and I'll tell you that you don't truly understand what the thing we call "Liberty", that you fought for, means.

    Your move, my fellow patriot.
    Last part first: No, I won't call you an unpatriotic (epithet of your choosing here) as you have the courage of your convictions and I respect that.

    Notice I did say the "idea" of our nation, not how it actually is. I do agree with you that what we now have is a perverted version of what the Founding Fathers envisioned.

    As for the first part: The largest part of the mission I was engaged in was to prevent the Soviet Union from coming through the Fulda Gap and heading for the Rhine River. Thankfully, we never had to test the theory that we could stop them. But, for the record, I was on active duty when the Wall went up and again when it was torn down.

    I will also tell you that, having lived in several other countries, this country, with all its warts and flaws, is still the most freedom-loving and the most respectful of its citizens' rights on the face of this planet. I would not care to live elsewhere.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mastiff69 View Post
    at the same time if you chose not to pledge you should just stand their without making any disruptions (protesting etc..) as some knot heads will do to assert their displeasure to the class .
    That's called disrupting class and should subject a student to disciplinary action.

    ....though standing shouldn't be required. Sitting quietly should suffice.
    Last edited by TheQ; 09-14-2011 at 11:19 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mastiff69 View Post
    you should just stand their without making any disruptions (protesting etc..)
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    That's called disrupting class and should subject a student to disciplinary action.
    ok.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    Last part first: No, I won't call you an unpatriotic (epithet of your choosing here) as you have the courage of your convictions and I respect that.
    Principle before party. That's my motto.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

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    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    Notice I did say the "idea" of our nation, not how it actually is. I do agree with you that what we now have is a perverted version of what the Founding Fathers envisioned.
    And yet the author of the pledge (a devout socialist) had quite a different "idea" of the nation than what the ff's (not a unified ideological body themselves) wrote in the US Constitution. The current perverted direction of the nation is exactly what Mr. Francis Bellamy, the author, had in mind. The pledge is socialist propaganda designed to sway thought away from the individual and towared support of the collective. By supporting the pledge, you are actually supporting Mr. Bellamy and the perverted direction the country has gone, are you not?
    Last edited by CoonDog; 09-14-2011 at 11:37 AM.

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoonDog View Post
    And yet the author of the pledge (a devout socialist) had quite a different "idea" of the nation than what the ff's (not a unified ideological body themselves) wrote in the US Constitution. The current perverted direction of the nation is exactly what Mr. Francis Bellamy, the author, had in mind. The pledge is socialist propaganda designed to sway thought away from the individual and towared support of the collective. By supporting the pledge, you are actually supporting Mr. Bellamy and the perverted direction the country has gone, are you not?
    No, in no way am I supporting Mr. Bellamy or his ideals. He may have written the Pledge, but I do not see his misguided ideas in it.

    Gentle people, understand that I, like so many others, wrote a blank check to this nation a long time ago. That check, unlike the checks of so many of my brothers and sisters, was never cashed. The check started with an oath that I swore to protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. It finished with these words:

    "I am an American soldier. I serve in the forces which guard our country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense."

    No, our nation is not all that it can be. There are too many greedy, or even evil, politicians, and those who support them, who would, truth be known, be much happier were all of us under the unbearable yoke of slavery. It is up to each and every one of us who calls himself/herself "American" to make sure that yoke does not descend upon our necks.

    I do not know whether any of you here have thought of it in this way, but what we do here on OCDO and in our various states' organizations is going a long, long way to keep our nation the most free nation on the planet. It eats into the very souls of people like George Soros, Michael Bloomberg, the entire Brady Bunch, and all of their fellow travelers that they cannot remove that one very important symbol of our freedoms; the right to own and carry a firearm.

    May Almighty God grant in His Infinite Wisdom that it may ever be so!!!

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    May Almighty God grant in His Infinite Wisdom that it may ever be so!!!
    Then we stand in solidarity, my bother.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoonDog View Post
    And yet the author of the pledge (a devout socialist) had quite a different "idea" of the nation than what the ff's (not a unified ideological body themselves) wrote in the US Constitution. The current perverted direction of the nation is exactly what Mr. Francis Bellamy, the author, had in mind. The pledge is socialist propaganda designed to sway thought away from the individual and towared support of the collective. By supporting the pledge, you are actually supporting Mr. Bellamy and the perverted direction the country has gone, are you not?
    And apparently wrote to promote their selling of US flags to all the schools in the country. So in essence an ad campaign.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

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    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    You are not pledging allegiance to the government, Bush, Obama, Nixon or any of the other series of crooks who have held that office.

    You are pledging allegiance to the flag and to the republic, the basic idea of our nation, for which it stands.

    It is, of course, your right not to say it and I find it appalling that some politicians would force children to say it under threat of punishment.

    Yes, the case law has been established that it is a violation of rights guaranteed by the First Amendment to force the Pledge.

    All of that said, I have absolutely no respect for the cult behind the case law.
    I do not see any facts supporting force or punishment.Without force or punishment it's a non issue.I'm sure of the fact that when I recited the pledge in school it gave me a lifelong Love of my nation that I continue to embrace.There was no force or punishment in the early 60's when I was in grade school.We need to teach our kids when they're young to respect our nations ideals instead of the liberal,PC crap they've been given the last several decades.We've been reaping what has been sowed in those lost decades,and it's showing! I PLEDGE ALLEGENCE TO MY FLAG AND THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA STILL! AMEN! CARRY ON!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

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  24. #24
    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by sfcretired View Post
    no, in no way am i supporting mr. Bellamy or his ideals. He may have written the pledge, but i do not see his misguided ideas in it.

    Gentle people, understand that i, like so many others, wrote a blank check to this nation a long time ago. That check, unlike the checks of so many of my brothers and sisters, was never cashed. The check started with an oath that i swore to protect and defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. It finished with these words:

    "i am an american soldier. I serve in the forces which guard our country and our way of life. i am prepared to give my life in their defense."

    no, our nation is not all that it can be. There are too many greedy, or even evil, politicians, and those who support them, who would, truth be known, be much happier were all of us under the unbearable yoke of slavery. It is up to each and every one of us who calls himself/herself "american" to make sure that yoke does not descend upon our necks.

    I do not know whether any of you here have thought of it in this way, but what we do here on ocdo and in our various states' organizations is going a long, long way to keep our nation the most free nation on the planet. It eats into the very souls of people like george soros, michael bloomberg, the entire brady bunch, and all of their fellow travelers that they cannot remove that one very important symbol of our freedoms; the right to own and carry a firearm.

    May almighty god grant in his infinite wisdom that it may ever be so!!!
    i agree wholeheartily! Amen! Carry on!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

  25. #25
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamaneggs View Post
    I PLEDGE ALLEGENCE TO MY FLAG AND THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA STILL! AMEN! CARRY ON!
    ...and that's a personal choice. I pledge allegiance to my family -- to do what I can to make sure THEY are taken care of, DESPITE what "my" COUNTRY does to my paycheck.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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