OC Story from Lynchburg, VA

2a4all · Sep 15, 2011

FA with SR9c said:
Oh and I forgot to mention, he was armed, S&W M&P if my eyes serve me correct, so I wasn't up for a who's balls are bigger contest at the moment without being more confident in the law. Not to mention he had his hand over the gun in the holster most of the time, not that I felt threatened.

Welcome to OCDO.

You were right to not press the issue. However, this guard needs to be counseled about appropriate techniques when talking to customers. Placing his hand on the gun while telling you not to attempt to purchase beer could actually be taken as brandishing. I don't think he was taught that this is a proper "interview stance". Even if you didn't feel threatened, you sound as though you wern't completely comfortable either. Ask your uncle about it.

MKEgal · Sep 16, 2011

FA with SR9c said:
Oh and I forgot to mention, he was armed... Not to mention he had his hand over the gun in the holster most of the time, not that I felt threatened.

2a4all said:
...this guard needs to be counseled about appropriate techniques when talking to customers.
... Even if you didn't feel threatened, you sound as though you weren't completely comfortable either.

That certainly changes the tone of things!
Definitely bring this up w/ the manager, & potentially the supervisor of the RAC.
I mean, I've seen people who just naturally rest their hand on their hip & holster, or tuck their thumbs into their belts & their hand happens to be near the grip, but this sounds more deliberately threatening.

I'm curious why you didn't talk w/ the manager about the problem when she said hi to you on your way out?
Were you not comfortable in your knowledge of the laws?

Badger Johnson · Sep 16, 2011

I think I would have said:

1. You're armed and your hand is on your gun - in Virginia that's brandishing. Perhaps you'll let me videotape this 'interview' you're doing and then call 911 and see who is in the wrong?
2. You have no arrest powers being a private security guard, correct? I suggest you go guard the twinkies and let grownups shop legally. I don't drink beer and am buying it for my brother/friend.

...or would like to have said, lol.

Good thread.

FA with SR9c · Sep 16, 2011

TFred said:
Oh, there is no doubt she was wrong (it was a lady security guard). Apparently one of my "pet peeve" buttons is when someone tells me incorrect information in the context that it is the law, or the authority of the state dictating whatever incorrect information they are trying to sell me.

That particular conversation was based on what I firmly believe should be an illegal sign displayed at a local hospital which states, "It is unlawful to carry a handgun in this facility." The sign is 100% wrong, and it is a blatant attempt to wield the authority of the state of Virginia to enforce what is simply a private property owner's desire to influence the behavior of those utilizing the public services of their business. This almost literally infuriates me.

Off the soapbox now.

TFred

I'm there with you man.

FA with SR9c · Sep 16, 2011

2a4all said:
Welcome to OCDO.

You were right to not press the issue. However, this guard needs to be counseled about appropriate techniques when talking to customers. Placing his hand on the gun while telling you not to attempt to purchase beer could actually be taken as brandishing. I don't think he was taught that this is a proper "interview stance". Even if you didn't feel threatened, you sound as though you wern't completely comfortable either. Ask your uncle about it.

I didn't want to push it, knowing the store manager. I knew I could leave and come back with beef if needed. I'll be with my uncle in 2 months at the beach for thanksgiving, I'll give him the full story then, since as a judge he can't give legal advice anyway (technically). I felt it wasn't proper stance, I wasn't sure what private contractors can represent vs brandish.

FA with SR9c · Sep 16, 2011

MKEgal said:
That certainly changes the tone of things!
Definitely bring this up w/ the manager, & potentially the supervisor of the RAC.
I mean, I've seen people who just naturally rest their hand on their hip & holster, or tuck their thumbs into their belts & their hand happens to be near the grip, but this sounds more deliberately threatening.

I'm curious why you didn't talk w/ the manager about the problem when she said hi to you on your way out?
Were you not comfortable in your knowledge of the laws?

I will talk to the manager. I didn't want to be confrontational in front of the guard particularly while wearing my side arm, I knew I could always come back. I wasn't comfortable to refute his claim based on my knowledge of the law, you've made a correct assumption.

FA with SR9c · Sep 16, 2011

Badger Johnson said:
I think I would have said:

1. You're armed and your hand is on your gun - in Virginia that's brandishing. Perhaps you'll let me videotape this 'interview' you're doing and then call 911 and see who is in the wrong?
2. You have no arrest powers being a private security guard, correct? I suggest you go guard the twinkies and let grownups shop legally. I don't drink beer and am buying it for my brother/friend.

...or would like to have said, lol.

Good thread.

20/20 has me wanting to say a lot of things lol.

jmelvin · Sep 16, 2011

We'll look forward to you joining us for a dinner some time. With regard to the location just about any place large enough to host us serves some sort of beer or wine. Maybe since you're new to carrying this will be a good chance to learn some self restraint as well.

(I mean that in a pleasant jovial way.)

MKEgal · Sep 16, 2011

FA with SR9c said:
I didn't want to be confrontational in front of the guard particularly while wearing my side arm

:banghead:
Not to be rude, but HE clearly wasn't afraid to be confrontational while armed,
and he wasn't afraid to threaten you (hand on gun - potentially an actual crime that the police could get involved in),
and he wasn't afraid to lie to you (his lack of knowledge of law),
and he wasn't afraid to invent company policy.

IMHO, bringing his errors & rudeness & implied threat to the attention of the manager would not have been being confrontational, it would have been informing the manager that one of her employees (or in this case, contractors) was treating customers badly & needed immediate attention & quick retraining.

What you were wearing had no bearing on the situation other than giving the RAC an excuse to be rude to you. When you talk w/ the manager, see if you can get video from the store, showing him with his hand on his gun while confronting you.

paramedic70002 · Sep 17, 2011

Badger Johnson said:
2. You have no arrest powers being a private security guard, correct? I suggest you go guard the twinkies and let grownups shop legally. I don't drink beer and am buying it for my brother/friend.

In VA, armed security officers have arrest powers for offenses committed in their presence, i.e. can't serve arrest warrants or secure warrants upon investigation but otherwise considered LEOs.

skidmark · Sep 17, 2011

paramedic70002 said:
In VA, armed security officers have arrest powers for offenses committed in their presence, i.e. can't serve arrest warrants or secure warrants upon investigation but otherwise considered LEOs.

Actually, the power of arrest of an armed security guard is no more than that of any other citizen, except that on the word of an merchant/agent/employee they can arrest for shoplifting not committed in their presence.

Why would you say they cannot secure a warrant upon investigation when mere citizens can do that?

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+9.1-146

§ 9.1-146. Limitation on powers of registered armed security officers.
Compliance with the provisions of this article shall not itself authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or exercise any powers of a conservator of the peace. A registered armed security officer of a private security services business while at a location which the business is contracted to protect shall have the power to effect an arrest for an offense occurring (i) in his presence on such premises or (ii) in the presence of a merchant, agent, or employee of the merchant the private security business has contracted to protect, if the merchant, agent, or employee had probable cause to believe that the person arrested had shoplifted or committed willful concealment of goods as contemplated by § 18.2-106. For the purposes of § 19.2-74, a registered armed security officer of a private security services business shall be considered an arresting officer.
(1976, c. 737, § 54-729.33; 1978, c. 560, § 54.1-1907; 1980, c. 425; 1988, cc. 48, 765; 1992, c. 578, § 9-183.8; 1994, c. 45; 2001, c. 844.)

There is a problem with an armed security guard arresting anyone - if they arrest for a misdemeanor they must release on a summons or take you before a Magistrate for a warrant, and armed security guards cannot obtain summons books. You must be either LEO or Special Conservator of the Peace in order to be issued a summons book.

Some folks who are working armed security are CoPs. Their badge will say either "Special Conservator of the Peace" or "Police" - you can guess which one most badges say, seeing as how manufacturers charge by the letter.:lol:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+19.2-13

....
The order may also provide that a special conservator of the peace who has completed the minimum training standards established by the Department of Criminal Justice Services, has the authority to affect arrests, using up to the same amount of force as would be allowed to a law-enforcement officer employed by the Commonwealth or any of its political subdivisions when making a lawful arrest.
....

If an Armed Security Officer arrests you and cannot release you merely because they have no summons book they might try to take you before a Magistrate to apply for a warrant. I do not think that would be pretty for two reasons: 1) it will annoy the Magistrate; and 2) your attorney will be salivating and slobbeing all over the place thinking about his/her one-third split of the damages award based on the contingency fee contract.

stay safe.

peter nap · Sep 17, 2011

paramedic70002 said:
In VA, armed security officers have arrest powers for offenses committed in their presence, i.e. can't serve arrest warrants or secure warrants upon investigation but otherwise considered LEOs.

You've said that before Paramedic.
Skid's right, everyone has arrest powers over Felonies and a Misdemeanor that involves a breach of the peace.

Other than as a merchants agent, please provide a cite for the additional powers you have????????????

Can you conceal without a permit?
Use Blue lights?
Have the word Police on your badge or uniform?
Seize weapons for officer safety?
Get free coffee at 7/11?

Other than being listed as "Arresting Officer" on shoplifting warrants, what LEO authority do you have and where does it come from?

FA with SR9c · Sep 17, 2011

jmelvin said:
We'll look forward to you joining us for a dinner some time. With regard to the location just about any place large enough to host us serves some sort of beer or wine. Maybe since you're new to carrying this will be a good chance to learn some self restraint as well. (I mean that in a pleasant jovial way.)

True, no beer means a cheaper meal, I can order bigger this way!

FA with SR9c · Sep 17, 2011

MKEgal said:
:banghead:
Not to be rude, but HE clearly wasn't afraid to be confrontational while armed,
and he wasn't afraid to threaten you (hand on gun - potentially an actual crime that the police could get involved in),
and he wasn't afraid to lie to you (his lack of knowledge of law),
and he wasn't afraid to invent company policy.

IMHO, bringing his errors & rudeness & implied threat to the attention of the manager would not have been being confrontational, it would have been informing the manager that one of her employees (or in this case, contractors) was treating customers badly & needed immediate attention & quick retraining.

What you were wearing had no bearing on the situation other than giving the RAC an excuse to be rude to you. When you talk w/ the manager, see if you can get video from the store, showing him with his hand on his gun while confronting you.

I agree with you, I was more ticked off at the moment that I'd have to go somewhere else to buy beer. That in conjunction with not being positive about the law and the store manager is a prospect for what I do in my current job, I walked. I agree with all you're points, I don't take it as rude.

FA with SR9c · Sep 17, 2011

skidmark said:
Actually, the power of arrest of an armed security guard is no more than that of any other citizen, except that on the word of an merchant/agent/employee they can arrest for shoplifting not committed in their presence.

Why would you say they cannot secure a warrant upon investigation when mere citizens can do that?

There is a problem with an armed security guard arresting anyone - if they arrest for a misdemeanor they must release on a summons or take you before a Magistrate for a warrant, and armed security guards cannot obtain summons books. You must be either LEO or Special Conservator of the Peace in order to be issued a summons book.

Some folks who are working armed security are CoPs. Their badge will say either "Special Conservator of the Peace" or "Police" - you can guess which one most badges say, seeing as how manufacturers charge by the letter.:lol:

If an Armed Security Officer arrests you and cannot release you merely because they have no summons book they might try to take you before a Magistrate to apply for a warrant. I do not think that would be pretty for two reasons: 1) it will annoy the Magistrate; and 2) your attorney will be salivating and slobbeing all over the place thinking about his/her one-third split of the damages award based on the contingency fee contract.

stay safe.

Awesomely informational! Thanks.

ProShooter · Sep 17, 2011

peter nap said:
Get free coffee at 7/11?

Wawa is much better, and their coffee isnt boiling hot for the next two days. You can actually drink it the same day.

scouser · Sep 17, 2011

ProShooter said:
Wawa is much better, and their coffee isnt boiling hot for the next two days. You can actually drink it the same day.

As Peter was talking about cops, shouldn't the deciding factor on where to buy coffee be whether the place sells good donuts?

nuc65 · Sep 18, 2011

Went to FL noted in thread, and other FLs and bought a beer or two (or six) at each one, no issues. Made sure that security guards all saw me open carrying six-pack.

nuc65 · Sep 18, 2011

FA with SR9c said:
... I've read the letter from ABC about Open Carry in Restaurants and it's the closest thing I've found, all of the concealed carry law doesn't address whether open carry applies when concealed doesn't etc etc.

So my new friends, does anyone have a link to open carry only law? or does anyone have a letter relating to just buying beer or liquor while open carrying?...

I hope by now you have reviewed a number of forum posts to realize that the law is written as to what you are not allowed to do. Not what you are allowed to do. Open carry 'laws', if existent only will state what you may not do as a function of open carry. Such as the concealed carry in a restaurant does not allow you to drink while conceal carrying. Open carry is a different story, you might (although frowned upon in this community) open carry and have a beer as perfectly legal. However, there is another law (sorry don't have the cite handy) that you may run afoul of that says carrying a weapon while under the influence is illegal. In a restaurant, store or other privately held property the property holder may deny you the option of carry in exchange for travel through or upon the property. You won't find a law allowing you to purchase alcohol while carrying because laws here are not written to allow you to do something, and you won't find a law allowing you to open carry in a restaurant. You also won't find laws written specifically against it in VA because they are not disallowed.

FA with SR9c · Sep 18, 2011

ProShooter said:
Wawa is much better, and their coffee isnt boiling hot for the next two days. You can actually drink it the same day.

We don't have Wawa's here, only Sheetz. A couple local joints have good coffee though, The Muse, The White Hart, The Good Cherry are a few.

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